Hovinds Found Guilty on All Counts

It’s all over but for the sentencing. Kent and Jo Hovind’s defense team rested their case without presenting any evidence or calling any witnesses, claiming that the prosecution had failed to make their case.

The jury deliberated for only 2.5 hours before finding Kent Hovind guilty on all 58 counts, and Jo Hovind guilty on all 44. Kent faces a maximum sentence of 288 years, and his wife faces 225. Jo has been released on her own recognisance until sentencing in January, but Kent is going to be in jail until then.

I guess Dr Dino won’t be coming to SA after all. What a shame.


57 Responses to “Hovinds Found Guilty on All Counts”

  1. Yay! I shall immediately draft a letter to the Eastern Province Herald, who edited the bit about Horvind being a criminal out of my last anti-creationist rant I sent them.

    Thanks for keeping us updated. 😉

  2. Given the amount of lives this guy has ruined as a result of the sheer quantity of misinformation, bullshit and overall utter garbage he spews out on a regular basis, max sentance is not enough. I do find it mildly humourous though. I know I shouldn’t. LOL prison bitch! Say hi to big bubba for me.

  3. Salman: It’s my pleasure

    R2: well, if you believe in his God, i would suggest that his maximum sentence is not actually 288 years in jail, but an eternity in hell. And yes, I do kinda hope that he will discover a deeper understanding of the biblical story of Sodom.

  4. R2D2: I’m not sure why you say Kent Hovind has “ruined lives” – sure I don’t agree with everything he says, but I can think of far worse people, and worse things that been said, that have gone un-punished. I’m not really sure time spent in jail is the best way of him rectifying any wrongs. Surely if he owes money, make him pay it? Then again I’m no lawyer, so I’ll shut up round about now.

    moonflake: the problem with “if you believe in his God”, is the issue (which is debated both ways) of whether Christians can “lose their salvation” (which I’m sure no-one really wants to get into here) – which might suggest that even though he’s been busted for tax evasion, he may still be going to heaven.

    I think it’s a real pity when someone steps into the spot light, professing a set of beliefs, or values, that people should live by only to get caught out by something like this. Even if he isn’t in the wrong biblically, it’ll certainly affect the way people see and judge him.

    Then again am I any better, and have I just made this a spot light, that I’ve stepped into 😉 Hey, what’s this big target doing on my back… heh.

  5. This judgment should absolutely affect the way people see and judge Hovind, and all of christianity besides. People need to start understanding that being a christian doesn’t automatically make you a moral or truthful person. Having morals and telling the truth does. And a lot of us manage to do that even without the threat of hellfire or upsetting a big beard in the sky, so it gets a little irritating when people think they are morally superior just because they subscribe to a religion.

    But yeah, i’d agree he probably didn’t actually ‘ruin’ anyone’s life, just charged them money to be lied to on a grand scale. But he is a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou prick and it’s nice to see him exposed for the criminal he is.

    PS they are making him pay the money too.

    PPS and he is in the wrong biblically, on both the paying taxes (Rom 13:1-2, 1 Peter 2:13) and the bearing false witness (Rom 13:9) fronts.

  6. Why should (this judgement) “absolutely affect the way people see and judge all of christianity”? And just what should this “way” be? 😉 But you’re right, there are plenty of people who are credited by others with trust and faith, because they call themselves Christians, that are anything but honest or kind.

    I’d have to admit that I probably know far more “non-Christians” who’re nicer, kinder or more honest than a lot of the Christians I know. I’ve always found this a little ironic, and saddening… but then again they say the thing which does Christianity the most harm, is Christians. Those Westboro Baptist folk certainly spice things up with their take on the bible – now THAT is fire-and-brimstone alright!

    I see the “The jury also granted the prosecution’s request for the Hovinds to forfeit $430,400. That amount equals the value of the checks signed and cashed by Jo Hovind in the 44 counts”, but did they mention the tax? I don’t see it in the article, maybe the brain’s just on weekend already :/

    I meant, in terms of him “not being wrong biblically”, from the point that he’s arguing that nothing he has is Caesar’s, and being so sure he’s not in the wrong whilst “doing the right thing”, etc etc etc, that even if he should (somehow) be right in the greater scheme of things, and get awarded the highest place in heaven for standing against the authorities in this case, it’s certainly done his testimony here on earth a lot of harm.

    I’m curious to see what’s posted on, or happens to, his blog (http://www.cseblogs.com) – but it seems to have been down for the last day or two.

  7. not all the counts he was charged with involved the payment of taxes, most were for the willful and knowing avoidance of federal reporting requirements, and impeding IRS officials in their duty. As such, it’s not just about the tax… in fact, if he had just paid the taxes when the IRS told him he was behind, he wouldn’t have been facing jail time. I’m not sure how the IRS plans to recoup the taxes from him, but the jail time and the forfeit of funds relate to the additional charges caused by him and his wife trying to evade the law and cover up a lot of their movement of funds.

    The ‘render unto ceasar’ phrase is ambiguous, and should be taken in the context of the bible as a whole if you’re going to use the bible as backup. And the bible says in more than one place to respect state authority. This is a phrase that is often deliberately used by tax evaders… and since Kent was caught out in several other tactical manouevres designed to evade payment of tax, many of which he boasted about, i’d say it’s a fair bet that he’s not using this phrase because he believes it’s what jesus meant, but because it suits his ends.

    Hovind is going to find himself in heaven facing a very irate Jesus, who’s rolling up his sleeves and saying “let me show you what we do with Mr. Clever Pants around here”.

  8. Well I pay my taxes like a good little boy 🙂

    In case any of your readers are interested, or would like to leave their comments, I see the guys who were brining Kent Hovind to South Africa (mPower Ministries) have a forum up where people can post about the the verdict, etc: http://www.mpowerministries.co.za/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=45&func=showcat&id=&view=flat&catid=8

    Seems they’re getting both positive and negative feedback (whichever might be deemed “positive” ;))

  9. Jebus H Christ. Scary scary place, that website is.

    I always knew the eastern cape was the redneck belt of South Africa, but…yikes.

    I wonder if HIS people have a forum. -puts on asbestos suit and goes fishing-

  10. Ross, you said, “…they say the thing which does Christianity the most harm, is Christians.”

    Respectfully, I disagree. The thing which does Christianity the most harm is the fact that it is an illogical, contradictory and unsubstantiated mythology that requires acceptance of its own doctrines before the alleged evidence of their validity can be observed.

    I’m not really surprised that Horvinds turn up in Christian circles because it seems to me that Christianity provides a ready pool of minds that have been primed for snake oil salesmen.

  11. Salman: well said. Couldn’t agree with you more.

  12. you all know that the H. stands for “heptoid”, right?

  13. crap – haploid. guess who didn’t take biology.

    amusingly enough, i googled for it, and found myself last year
    i’ve been making this mistake for a while, it seems.

  14. Salman: I thought it was Ghandi or someone who said that, but I can’t find any record of that so I’m probably wrong. Ghandi did say “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ” though. Wouldn’t you agree though, that if Christians were the way the bible tells them to be, or “like Christ”, they’d be a pretty decent bunch of people – if they were always putting others first and were more honest and loving than any other group of people (regardless of whether their beliefs are “right or wrong”). It just seems that so many abandon what the bible teachs, yet are quick to “hide behind it” (which of course has earned them the title of hypocrites).

    Illogical – we could argue it back and forth, some consider it perfectly logical and can’t understand how anyone could not, and visa versa. Perhaps this is based on general intelligence, up bringing, or level of education – so just because it’s illogical to some, doesn’t make it illogical to others… who gets the final verdict?

    Contradictory – definitely by looking at the actions of it’s members, and as for the bible perhaps a better understanding of it would resolve this (I don’t mean that YOU don’t understand it properly, I merely mean that if was written by God, perhaps we humans don’t understand everything He meant quite as well as we think we do).

    Unsubstantiated Mythology – this is the part where I tell you that “the truth” has been passed on from generation to genration, and “hey look, they even have this old book of facts to prove it”, and you tell me you have no reason to accept it’s authenticity. Then you tell me that a Christian can’t “prove” any of it is real, to you, (perform a miracle, part the sea, etc) and I tell you if Christians could “prove it” it would remove the need for faith. Then you tell me “see, I’m right” 😉

    I reckon if God tapped someone on the shoulder, and went “Boo! I’m God! :D” I think one could quickly start believing, without first accepting any doctrines. Assuming said person had no reason of doubting that said shoulder-tappee was in fact God.

    I don’t really know if counts as a tapping on the shoulder, but there’s an interesting story of a guy called Donny Pauling, whose father was a pastor, but he rejected Christianity and despised Christians. He went on to become a rather successful porn photographer, making lots of money, and ran a blog where he’d often have a go at Christians, etc. One day quit the business and became a Christian – his fiance’s still in the business, and is trying to come to terms with how much he’s changed, and how quickly (she think he’s lost his mind). Not saying it’s proof for anything, but he must’ve seen/felt/experienced something, to make him do a 180 degree turn with his life, and turn his back on his income and support of his friends. Dunno if you’d check it out, but it starts here: http://www.donnysramblings.com/2006/09/new-direction-but-not-running-from.html

  15. hey Ross, guess what. I’m God. Prove I’m not.

  16. moonflake… I guess by definition the only way to prove that you’re not god is to have you prove you are?

    as for the real reason I’m posting… all this talk about this Hovinds guy made me curious. So I opened up the old wikipedia for a bit of background reading. I couldn’t not check out the link to drdino.com and of course check out his theories on dinosaurs… and then on to a specific article. It begins with a description of an apatosaurus aparently quoted from the bible… JOB 40:15-24. Quoted in the loosest sense of the word (paraphrased to his liking). A quick google search brought up the actual text which I must admit was hauntingly similar. So then I did what any good jewish boy would do and looked up the original hebrew text. I then proceeded to finish the last two chapters of the book… an interesting read IMHO

    God may or may not have created dinosaurs. Firebreathing dragons, on the other hand, he did. In fact it was one of his first creations. I’m a little freaked out.

  17. Ross: I disagree completely with your suggestion that Christ-like Christians would be a pretty decent bunch. I would rather avoid people who are nice only because their god tells them to be so. The possibility that their imaginary god might tell them the opposite tomorrow would place me in grave danger.

    I believe that the Bible says this best in Isaiah 64, verse 6: “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.” Righteousness counts for nothing unless you understand and trust the reason for the righteousness being there. It is, in fact, disingenuous of you to propose good behaviour as the measure of the value of the Christian faith when the religion itself expressly invalidates good behaviour as a criterion for salvation.

    Moreover, logic, by its very definition, is an objective process of reasoning. In logical matters, the final verdict is given by the person who is best at logic, just as in maths the question of whether or not 1 + 1 is equal to 2 is best answered by the person who can add. Neither of these disciplines are difficult, and if the results of either are open to debate, the answer will be attained through a process of further critical evaluation rather than through faith.

    You can read a lot of about the contradictions contained in the text of the bible itself over at the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible. You can read a lot about the fault of your argument that we cannot understand the Bible because it was written by god, which we know because it says so in the Bible, over at Moonflake’s Fallacy 101 page. You can read more about who wrote the Bible in any reputable work on the history of Christianity. On this subject, I have no objection to you consulting a volume that has been published by a religious organisation.

    I also suspect that, for the shoulder tapping experience to carry any weight, it is the tapper and not the tappee who would have to make a case for being god. I cannot think of anything that would convince me of this, but I am told that such conversions happen more frequently through fire or steel than personal visits by the deity involved.

    As far as I can tell, Donny Pauling does not claim that god visited him in person, so I don’t really understand why you mentioned him*. Did you choose him as an example because you think that I am a very bad person who would be moved by another story about someone doing what you consider to be very bad things? I won’t be offended, but I would like to know.

    Ross, my intention is not to make this an unwelcoming environment for you. I just have a low tolerance for sanctimonious twaddle. I don’t hate you, but when you transparently try to plant a few seeds to give me something to think about, I am going to think, and I don’t expect you to enjoy what I come up with. 😉

    Moonflake: Sorry for commandeering your blog. I’m doing that too often these days.

    *: He was converted by members of the XXXChurch, who visit adult entertainment conventions to tell people about the evils of porn and masturbation. (Really. Because “Christians don’t masturbate.”)

  18. Hahaha, you can’t make a claim and then challenge someone to “un-prove” it – those are sneaky-sneaky old school manipulation tactics 😉 I could just as easily say that flying pink elephants exist, and leave it up to you to prove that I’m wrong, and then to say that if you weren’t able to prove I’m wrong, you have no choice but to accept what I’ve said as true.

    I’d suggest that science and logic work a little differently… you make a claim, which you justify or “prove”, then we choose to believe you based on the evidence. I’m not going to be anywhere near the sea, but a pillar of fire might just convince me 😉

    We both know I could just as easily say “prove that God doesn’t exist”.

    But now we’ve long since left the original topic of Kent Hovind and paying (or not paying) taxes, wouldn’t you say?

    Hope you have a great weekend.

  19. Salman: but you do it so well…
    Ross: I think you need to understand that those “sneaky-sneaky old school manipulation tactics” are exactly the ones being used to motivate the existence of God. You may want to consider why you will not accept them from an atheist, but will accept them from a Pastor.
    Let’s say you did challenge me to prove that God did not exist. I would make some arguments, and you would respond with some religious tenets and beliefs, such as that God moves in mysterious ways, that his motives cannot be known, that he has said three times in the Bible not to test him so no scientific proof can be made that he doesn’t exist and he won’t perform miracles on command… every single one of those arguments could be used to explain to you that I am God. After all, I have taken many forms in the past, how less likely is a blogger than a burning bush?
    What i’m trying to do here is not trick you into a point where i can say “ahah! got you!”… if anything, I’m trying to get you to apply your intellect to the problem of your faith, because it appears that thus far you have been reluctant to do so. You really need to think hard about the arguments that have been made to you to convince you that god exists… and then consider whether you’d let an atheist get away with the same tactics?
    Ah, you gotta love that sneaky-sneaky old school religion.

  20. Spot: I have said three times in the Bible not to test Me (Deut 6:16, Matt 4:17, Luke 4:12) therefore do not expect Me to prove that I am who I say I am, for I have said unto thee that I will not be tested.

    Re the apatosaurus phrase…another example of Hovind interpreting the Bible to his own ends? I’m shocked.

  21. Salman: Once again I think my point didn’t come across properly, I was refer more to “tax-evading”, “hypocritical”, “care nothing for non-believers” rep that Christians have going for themselves at present – I’d have to agree with you though, should said God tell said group of people to be the contrary, it could be a rather unpleasant time for many. I was referring more to their actions in terms of “deeds” not “faith”, but I’d agree with you in terms of measure.

    The problem with “1+1” logic is we all know, and can “prove”, that the answer is 2 – and anyone outside of this reasoning is then considered wrong. With the “God vs no God” thing, we have two groups of people, defending their answer as true, whilst I’m not sure we’re able to decide on a finite answer. I know you may believe there’s no God, but others believe there is – surely either said would need to “prove” or “disprove” the other, before we could call it “logic”? I understand that “weighing up the evidence can only lead you with one answer” – but once again, each party has their own evidence, and see the common evidence differently, thus reach a different conclusion.

    It’s not that I don’t think we can understand the bible properly, I think we spend too much time listening to other people interpret it for us, instead of (bare with me) “asking God what He meant” or “what light we are to interpret it in”. I’ve heard everything from “hell being a real, physical place beneath the core of the earth” to “hell was the local trash dump that Jesus was talking about”. Once again, someone’s wrong. I’ll definitely read Moonflake’s Fallacy 101 page.

    No, you’re right, Donny doesn’t claim that God visited him in person – my point was more about being “realising that God is real”, without first accepting any doctrines (as you previously mentioned). I certainly wasn’t calling you a bad person, or trying to relate you to Donny, I was just using him as an example of someone slightly “further away from God” than someone who goes to Sunday school every morning like a good little boy or girl, who one day “finds God”. It was something he was realised he had to accept, though he didn’t want to. Personally, I didn’t want to believe in a God, when I became a Christian. I certainly wasn’t “trying to find Him”. I guess I used Donny because I feel my story is closer to his than most other testimonies.

    I’m glad you don’t mind me being here, though I feel a little bad for this horribly long comments on poor Moonflake’s blog 😉 I’m here mainly to get a glimpse of your views, I don’t consider you guys to be the enemy, I don’t mind be prodded or slapped every now and then, and I promise to do my best to keep my urges of condemning you with fire and brimstone at bay (sarcasm! ;)).

    moonflake: I totally agree, and it’s something that pains me about church and pastors. In my defense I’d like to claim that I’m a skeptic of everything I read/hear regardless who said it, or how. Unfortunately this tends to upset some of the Christian folk… oh well, can’t keep everyone happy.

    HAHAHAHA, loved the rest of your comment. I’m afraid they haven’t trained me to know all of those answers just yet, but yes, I’m sure they’re what I’d find in the textbook 😉 As for applying my intellect to my faith, I obviously claim that I have, which would probably make me sound even more loony that not.

    In short, no arguments ever convinced me of my faith. It came at a time when I was anything but looking for God, and far from any “Christian influence”. Despite the many complaints that I was being “brainwashed by my friends” most, if not all, of them are/were not Christian. Even my brother, who I’m really close to, is an atheist and fought my “new beliefs” as best he could. All I had was opposition – yet I “gave in to brain washing”? Did I let that opposition convince me that I must be right? No. I had my mind made up before it even started. Feel free to call me a loon. I’m sorry this wasn’t more detailed, but would be happy to discuss it further if you’d really like.

  22. moonflake: God says to test Him, in Malachi 3:10: “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it”

    So if I tithe to you… 😉

  23. Ross: Oh, you mean you admit that God contradicts himself in the Bible? And you don’t see that as fundamentally a problem with the use of the Bible to substantiate the existence of your entire faith?

    If no arguments were made to convince you that god exists, then you must believe he exists because of some personal, revealed knowledge, feeling or experience which you have interpreted as the existence of god. If this is the case, then i strongly urge you to investigate other explanations of whatever feeling or experience made you willing to change your life. Even if you did have some sort of transcending spiritual experience, how sure can you be that Christianity is the only religion that explains it? Have you checked the others?

    We can chat again once you’re done giving equal weight to other explanations. Personally I’d go with psychological explanations first, but since you seem to like the mystic ones, I’d suggest Islam, then Hinduism, then Buddhism, then Sikhism, then Judaism (in order of world popularity as of 2005). And don’t forget New Ageism, Alien Abduction, and The Matrix. They all seem just as plausible.

    You may think i’m being sarcastic, but i’m really quite serious. Think about it.

  24. moonflake: looking at the KJV:

    Deuteronomy 6:16 says “Ye shall not tempt” (“nacah” for the whole phrase). Malachi 3:10 says “prove me now herewith” (“bachan” for “prove”). I can’t see a relation between them, they seem to both be listed as root words.

    My answer would be, in English, that yes it looks like God’s contradicting himself. In the Hebrew, it seems to be two pretty different things.

    I’d say that even if they were the exact same words, Malachi would be an exception to a “general rule” not to test Him, not a contradiction. It’s hardly convenient, everywhere that we’re told not to test God, to include “except in Malachi 3:10”.

  25. Yes, I’m afraid “some personal, revealed knowledge, feeling or experience which [I] have interpreted as the existence of god” would be the best description of why I believe what I do. I didn’t want to accept it, and it’d be a lot more convenient for me if there either was no God, or I could just pretend/accept/believe there was no God, but I’m afraid I can’t. There’ve been plenty of times I’ve wished I could, and have even tried to.

    I’ve already put a lot of thought into, and made up my mind about, why it’s not “Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Judaism, New Ageism, Alien Abduction or The Matrix” – certainly enough to bet my salvation on it, though I realise many members of said beliefs do the same. I’m not so sure it’s Christianity as it’s said/viewed/done today that I believe in, but it is the “God of the bible” and “Jesus” – so that pretty much makes me a Christian by default.

  26. “nacah” means to weigh, “bachan” means to try by heat, both are used to mean to test, try or prove. The terms nacah, bachan (old testament, hebrew), dokimazo and peirazo (new testament, greek) are all taken to mean prove, often archaically rendered as tempt. Note that ‘prove’ in this sense means ‘test’, as in the expression ‘the exception that proves the rule’, which actually means ‘the exception that tests the rule’.

  27. if god exists why hasn’t my adsl line been installed yet?
    i test him to get telkom to move their asses!

  28. I hate to be taking up so many comments like this, but back to the topic of Kent Hovind, Loren Coleman, of Cryptomundo, suggests that Kent Hovind’s been funding a search for Mokele-mbembe (a large creature reported to live in the lakes and swamps of the Congo River basin), “as he felt if he could prove that a living dinosaur species existed, it would overthrow evolution” – http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/dr-dino-jail

  29. Only goes to show how badly Kent misunderstands evolution. It’s a pity that so many people think that he knows what he’s talking about when it comes to that subject. Kent has the distinction of his claims about evolution and creationism being mocked not only by scientists, but even by other creationists.

  30. i wish he would find a living dinosaur…
    think of the cool rides.

  31. Yes. Imagine:

    “Ride, Dino, Ride.”



    Whap, whap.

    “Come on, Dino, you can do it!”




  32. Living dinosaurs have been identified in Africa, as my web site explains:
    Although we failed to get good photographs because our photographer got a bit shook up when the dino nearly trampled him, we did come away with casts of footprints and some half-decent photos.

  33. oh my god! what a vile load of misinformation and lies you have alleged Dr Richard Paley.

    i seriously hope that this is a joke.
    you’re “expedition” shows you to be a liar, a bigot and an idiot.

    first: proving that dinosaurs are still living does not disprove evolution. you obviously do not understand evolution at all if you believe this to be true.

    second: if you’re doing scientific research into the make-up of creatures then prehaps you should get a biologist to join your team. it always amazes me how creationists believe that “such diverse fields as hydrology, discontinuity systematics, and design inference” are a decent substitute for even a single biologist who’s spent his life researching the biology of living things.

    third: your “proof” is terrible. what you have is a drawing, a photo of a hole in the ground, and a very blurry picture of nothing.
    the drawing is not even close to any kind of proof.
    the “footprint” looks a lot like an elephant or hippo footprint (if it is indeed a genuine footprint… i have my doubts vased on the rest of your claims).
    finally: the “first ever photo of a living, breathing, charging dinosaur” is so blurred and so small as to be utterly useless. why didn’t you provide a larger scan of the photograph? what it looks like you have there is known commonly as an elephant. but its so blurred that it could also be log.
    giving you the benifit of the doubt, let’s say this is an actual animal. you have what seems to be a leg in the center of the picture, but what’s that in the bottom left? it’s too thin to be another leg. in fact it looks exactly like an elephant’s trunk if it were to be a little blurred and out of focus.
    in fact, rotating the picture by 90 degrees clockwise, you get a very decent picture of an elephant’s front foot stepping forward with its trunk hanging just behind it.

    finally: your “Story” is so contrived and full of christian propoganda that it makes me wonder if there even was a trip at all.
    let me give you some hints on writing fiction:
    1:don’t make your characters so 2-dimensional. they are unbelievable and lack real personality. try basing them on real people.
    2: don’t use cliched or stupid names except for minor characters. main protaganists should have memorable, believable, yet unique names.
    3: don’t make your main character(s) so “pure”. it’s unbelievable. real people struggle to do good and overcome their personal demons.
    4: you write dialog worse than george lucas.
    “‘Put down that weapon! The power of Christ compels you!’ I immediately commanded, the words flowing through me as if from Above.” seriously… real people don’t say that sort of thing except 3rd rate actors putting on a show for someone. terrible, terrible dialog. try getting someone else to proofread your work and rewrite things that make them roll their eyeballs.

    i’m sure there’s plenty more to comment on here, but that’s just my 2 cents after spending 5 minutes reviewing your “claims”.

  34. Dear Zenstar,

    You clearly do not have enough Lambuel puppets to play with…

    Lambuel has been clinically proven to reduce stress.


  35. Zen: the site appears to be a parody. What a pity.

  36. thank god for that… if you’ll excuse the irony

  37. The “photographic proof (at last!)” has been through The GIMP, and its ratios just aren’t quite right… what a pitty, I had my hopes up.

    Would be cool to find a dino though.

    “YTMND owns ObjectiveMinistries.org”: http://ytmndownscult.ytmnd.com

  38. look for “defending the straw man on google video”, you’ll understand that kent hovind wasn’t exactly trying to hide from the irs as much as he was flat out standing up to them.

    I’m a born again Christian myself. I write music and create art for God

    moonflake: I don’t mean to annoy you, I just stumbled across this bored as I was checking out the kent hovind updates about the trial and what not.

    I know you won’t take me seriously now, but please try to at least keep this in the back of your mind. God only shows himself to those who open there hearts and minds up to him. that’s why he seems so unreal to you. You’ve probably surounded yourself or been subjected to so much info against God that it seems impossible for you to believe.

    Don’t let the world fool you, and always remember that you can always find Jesus if you really want to.

    Knowing that I’m going to heaven if I die tomorrow is the best feeling in the world when i really think about it. please, know that God is calling you regaurdless of what you think and it will always be your choice whether or not you want to listen. Don’t sell yourself short. There’s a whole other side to the world that you’ll never know anything about unless you decide to look.

  39. Lewis: You have shared with us the doctrine that you have to believe in god in order to receive proof that he exists.

    Do you not see the problem with this?

  40. I’m saying you could look for proof all you want, and find plenty of pretty crazy things that support the God of the bible and many of the stories, but if you don’t want to ignore that proof because you don’t want to believe in God it’s just as easy to look up evidence against him.

    It goes both ways depending on what you want to believe. the only difference is when you beieve in God, and give your life to Jesus It changes you. GOD CHANGES YOUR HEART and you just feel such a compasion to save lives, be as nice as you can and treat others how you want to be treated, and so on and so forth. If you believe GOD doesn’t exist, your just here for no reason really. Of course you feel the need to be a good person and live a decent life, but you never really know why it is you feel that way, and at the same time somebody else thinks it’s ok to murder people.

    man, i want to write more but i have to go to work.

    thanks for responding, I was afraid no one would see this

  41. man, i guess i should have proof read “if you want to ignore” should be up there. sorry

  42. Lewis, i was a christian, i’ve been there, i’ve done that. There was a time when I was just as convinced as you that if I died tomorrow, I would go to Heaven.

    Then I started thinking for myself. It’s actually rather refreshing. And believe me, I’m just as happy and compassionate and good a person as you, and live as decent a life. I don’t need to believe in a fairy tale to be moral – we are a social species, and our greatest survival advantage is co-operation, so do not presume that those who are not religious do not have reasons for being moral. The survival of society is directly beneficial to me, therefore it is in my own best interest to treat others as I would like to be treated, and to uphold the social contract. People who murder do so because they are socially maladjusted, psychotic, or just plain stupid.

    I think you may need to consider the possibility that religion is not the only way to lead a happy, fulfilled life.

  43. Lewis: I will make this short and simple. Please show me JUST ONE compelling proof that god exists. Just one.

    Moonflake: Ewwwww! You used to be a christian? Ewwwwww!

  44. Salman: in my defense, I was a teenager. Over the intervening years I progressed to Deist, then to Wicca, then to Agnostic, then to outright Atheist. The fact that this progression more or less ran parallel to my tertiary education and broadening of life experience is not, i believe, a coincidence.

  45. Mmmm…. I think you could be forgiven that.

    I was 11 when I saw the dark. 😉

  46. Moonflake: LOL, It’s like your arrogance just kind of seeps through the cracks on your mask of kindness. It’s cool though, I know there’s plenty of things you’d like to say that you don’t, and I respect that. I guess I’ll tell you a bit about myself since you shared with me a bit of your history.

    I went to church a few times through out my childhood. As I grew older I became confused, and often wondered why everyone just didn’t believe in one or the other. I personally believed in God, but he was definately on the back burner. Got way into music and art, eventually turned into a pot head/experimental drug user. Dove into the rock/metal/goth scene a bit, Nirvana/Manson/Pantera, all that good stuff. My favorite band was always Radiohead though. Was very love sick and slightly suicidal. Met my wife. Started to attend Church to score some points with the Dad, who was the Sunday school teacher, and because I thought it would be cool to check it out since I hadn’t really gone to church since I was young, and I did belive in God, so I figured ok, this should be cool. Read a book called Case for a Creator. Started studying the bible. Started testing my knowlege against Evolution and Other Religions. and then one day gave my life to Christ. I’ts a bit more complicated than that but I don’t won’t go any further unless you ask me specific questions.

    I’m curious as to why you stopped believeing if in fact you really believed at all. I only question your previous belief becuase you say as a christian you were not thinking for yourself.

    Salman: No thanks, been there done that. It’s a never ending battle most especially when you play the evidence game. I show you evadance, then you debunk it to the best of your knowlege, and then vise versa. LOL, especially online, are you kidding me. With such a vast (another great band buy the way) amount of evedance to go either way we could debunk each other to the ends of the earth. that’s the point I previously tried to make. It all comes down to what you truely want to believe. Are you understanding this yet? You can test it if you want to. Try as hard as you can to prove yourself wrong. You’ll find a world full of people who are a lot smarter than both you and I who still debate whether or not God exsists.

  47. Lewis: You said I was ignoring prood of the existence of god because I don’t want to believe. (16 November – you need to read your original message and its correction together.)

    Now, when I ask you to show me some of this proof I’m supposedly ignoring, you make excuses.

    Lets get a couple of things clear hear:

    1. As long as you are arguing that god exists, I will be the only one doing any debunking, by definition.

    2. You are a good illustration of the view that arguing with Christians is like trying to wrestle Jello.

    3. It sounds like you became a Christian to get a woman. I know how that sort of thing starts. At first you go along with things, and then you find that you have become immersed and your only support base is the cult itself. Then their ideas start to seem more sensible and, before you know it, you are one of them. In my case, I lived as a vegetarian for a bit.

    I hope that works out for you. It never worked out for me. I’m better now.

  48. ok i didn’t read all the posts there were too many
    i don’t know who this supposed christian guy is who got sent to jail so can someone enlighten me.
    re god – if there is a god
    he is not just the sole property of christians – he/she is a cosmic force that came before time began and doesn’t give a shit what ‘name’ god/allah/spirit/cosmic interconnected om field’ or whatever you call it. re the very small earth dwelling human world – the fundemental thing about ‘god’ is to be a generally ‘good’ and nice sociable honest person – cos from a social biology point of view it works better – even dawkins would tell you that – cos it means social groups get on better and everyone is happy.

    people who call themselves christians and then **** other people over in the name of god deserve serious sodomy for taking the name of god in serious vane – so they should get seiously spanked too in the process. hopefully this guy will get some serious sodomising ass whipping karma retribution in the process.
    if i was god – i would seriously bust anyone’s ass for calling themselves a christian and then acting like a **** particularly mr burning bush. i would burn him in the burning oilwells of iraq for all eternity for all his sanctimonious self serving preaching bull**** that’s for sure.

  49. not that i’m a fire and brimstone type person at all. i am very nice to people who are nice to me. promise.

  50. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind
    ok – i checked him out.

    he just looks like an idiot conman jerk.
    i mean – he created a dino park to ‘prove’ that dinosaurs co-existed with humans then missed out a whole chunk of history in the process.
    i mean – why bother?
    he must have been seriously delusional?!

  51. Borat? Is that you?

  52. lilo – sadly, there are many people out there, especially in the US, who fall for that kind of stuff and see him as a christian hero, even to the extent that they will totally ignore the fact that he is a crook and a liar. Doesn’t say much for their critical thinking skills, but then again, neither does the fact that they’re religious.

  53. lewis – ah, the good old ‘Scotsman’ argument. Thanks for reminding me of that one, I’ll add it the the Falacy 101 page as soon as I have time.

    Regarding the rest, i’m sorry to read your cult conversion story, it sounds like you’re well and truly dug in there. And I agree that it’s useless to debate the evidence for and against religion, not just online but at all – because there’s absolutely no evidence for religion, and a debate requires two sides.

    Don’t come around here ‘witnessing’ for your faith if you’re not ready to defend it with logical argument – we are a reality-based audience. There is no room for your fairy tales and make-believe here, regardless of how comforting you find them.

  54. correction: that should read “evidence for and against the existence of god”. We all know religion exists. Unfortunately.

  55. any meaningful understanding of what god and religion actually are – have to be taken within the context of anthropology first to have any meaningful and significant relevance to life/universe/society in the first place.
    people get soooooooooo defensive about ‘religion’ when half the time they don’t even know what they’re actually defending.

  56. ok – i’ll just add my thruppence to the debate above –

    lewis – you sound like a classic christian passive agressive type who uses the name of ‘god’ to preach down to the ‘supposedly unconverted’ it is a classic superiority complex trick that is used by missionaries the world over as part of the empirical colonialist mentality today – and is mainly used by the state machinery nowadays to justify the horror being perpetrated in the middle east today.

    missionaries the world over of various religions have been guilty of some of the worst crimes against (not all however some do deeply meaningful work too).
    In fact the whole history of the colonisation of the america’s lies in a deep blood bath of christian ideology used to justify mass slaughter of millions of the original indigenous populations.

    why should people have to believe in ‘god and jesus’ in order to be ‘saved’?
    people who have near death experiences generally ALL report heavenly experiences – WHATEVER religion or non religious philosophy they come from.
    God and christ consciousness etc are just METAPHORS for experiences of the cosmic universe and what happens to us – yes – they are fairy stories on one hand – or a bunch of interesting creation myths and laws and histories or whatever invented to try and describe particular human journeys throughout time – but it is not the whole truth and nothing but the truth – in fact the bible as we ‘know it’ is actually a whole bunch of highly editted and manipulated fragment of a grain of truth. The real truth is out there – and it is much much bigger than can be fitted in one small book. There is a whole universe out there filled with truth – much bigger than your tiny tiny concept of jesus truth.

    if you actually read enough about who jesus actually was – he was a nationalist zealot who was married to someone called mary magdalen and who wanted to defend the fledgling israeli state against the roman empire. they feared ‘armageddon’ which was a battle site in israel today called megido – then they actually had the big battle that they ‘prophecied’ (ie were preparing for) in 60AD – armageddon ACTUALLY ALREADY happened – and then the israelis of the time got expelled and then the roman empire took over – and all the stories got manipulated (seems to be a theme) and then paul came along took charge (he was roman citizen remember) and peter too (documented misoginistic anti women tendencies) and mary became a whore – jesus was ‘wife less’ and paul suddenly converted all the non ‘roman’ subjects to christianity in the various surrounding countries – by coincidence at the same time as the roman empire expanded etc etc –
    which had not very much to do with jesus original teachings which if you read the actual real dead contemporary of the time sea scroll translations – rather than stuff written decade later – no jesus wasn’t a peaceful fluffy bunny rabbit hippy type at all.
    Self righteous full of himself fundementalist fanatic comes to mind if you read actual contemporary writings.
    But hey.
    He was still part of an interesting cult – and reading about the Nazarenes which he was a part of (Nazareth the town itself didn’t exist at that time) is also interesting – particularly when you read about the connection with the Egyptian mythologies and how actually the original Israelites were actually an Egyptain smithying clan. Yes – all the jews still today – they are all goldsmiths if you hand’t noticed. Why did Hitler try and steal all their gold then.
    as i said – the truth is far more complex.
    but then that’s life.
    the simple truth about life is that nothing is ever that simple.
    i’ve brought up a whole bag of fish there.
    well – hey – i’m waiting…

  57. and i called that thruppence. i should have siad long rant/tirade etc.

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