Pseudoscientists, Psychics, and Pop Psychologists: Danie Krugel resurfaces on Carte Blanche

I don’t have MNet, so it was certainly interesting to discover that Danie Krugel had appeared on Carte Blanche again last night, by a sudden slew of new comments on old posts on the subject.

Yes indeed, it appears Danie was on Carte Blanche, and the formerly-respectable magazine show has sunk to new lows with this episode (transcript here). I can only express heartfelt dismay that Ruda Landman is ending a shining career in investigative journalism on this sorry and pathetic note.

I have read through the transcript, and I can only say that if you were taken in by that episode, then they must have been sending some sort of subliminal stupidity signal through the TV that wasn’t evident in the written words. I cannot fathom how some of the people who have commented following this episode consider it to be the success story to silence the critics. The only thing restoring my faith in humanity is the equal number of people expressing distaste for the three ring circus this show has become.

Let me summarise the highlights for you:

  • Carte Blanche decides to resurrect the investigation of notorious 80s paedophile Gert van Rooyen, by bringing in Danie to find the bodies of the missing girls. It’s a ratings dream: a paedophile who died before he could pay for his crimes or lead the police to the bodies of the girls he took. Two decades without answers amid massive news coverage and rumours of satanic rituals, police conspiracies and child prostitution rings… and in the midst of it all, families desperate for closure. In other words, prime pickings for the unscrupulous bottom feeders of society.
  • Danie uses a sample from a lock of Anne-Marie Wapenaar’s hair, kept by her mother, in his ‘device’. He receives a weak signal and claims that he might be getting interference from the rest of the lock (how interesting that he has never mentioned before that this could happen, and never seemed to get interference from the hair brushes and razors provided in other cases). The rest of the lock is brought to Danie’s location, and he receives a strong signal in Pretoria.
  • He does the same with Yolande Wessels’ hair, using a braid kept by her mother after it was cut off. Naturally, he receives a strong signal, again in Pretoria.
  • Allow me to remind you at this point that a braid that has been cut off cannot contain any roots, which means there is nothing physically present in that sample of hair to distinguish it as Yolande Wessels’. Should a body actually be found, and DNA extracted from the remains, that braid would not contain enough information to prove a match. Yet Danie claims he can use it to find her amongst nearly 7 billion other living people, and who knows how many dead people, on and under the earth.
  • Also allow me to remind you that Danie knows he is being asked to find the bodies of the missing girls in the van Rooyen case, and the location of the house where van Rooyen lived, and took the seventh girl who escaped, is public knowledge. In fact, it’s practically infamous.
  • So off they go from Bloemfontein to Pretoria, and despite claiming he now needs to refine the search to a more detailed location than just ‘Pretoria’, Danie heads straight to van Rooyen’s house. Proof positive that he knows the location, and has already made up his mind where he’s going, without the use of his device.
  • He then refines the search and leads them to an open plot, close to van Rooyen’s house and even closer to the spot where van Rooyen and his accomplice died. Yawn. Predictable.
  • Danie then identifies a search area for each body, each area being roughly the size of a football pitch. Assuming ‘roughly’ means about 100m by 50m, times two, that’s about a hectare of ground to cover. Danie claims he cannot refine the search further.
  • Let me repeat that – he receives a ‘strong signal’ from Bloemfontein that leads him directly to van Rooyen’s house in Pretoria, but when he’s standing at the site, suddenly he can’t refine it any more and claims he may be out by 100m. Add to that the fact that when he first tested the device, he located his son at a distance of 2m. Either his device has become less accurate over time, or he’s trying to give himself a wide enough search area to improve the chances of locating something that could be claimed as a hit.
  • So Carte Blanche digs. And digs. And digs some more. And predictably, in an area that has been used as a dumping ground, and lived on by farmer workers, they find remains of just about everything, including some fragments of bone that may or may not be human. No skeletons yet.
  • Now this is where things get really hysterical. Given that Danie cannot narrow the search any further, Carte Blanche turn to an expert who might be even more qualified than Danie at what he does (take that as you will) – they bring in a clairvoyant. Yes, read that again. Carte Blanche, not satisfied with a pseudoscientist, consult a psychic.
  • And then, as an aside, they express amazement that she told them what they were looking for before they told her. Gosh, colour me shocked, an expert at cold reading figured out what they were looking for, almost certainly after they had given her plenty of clues that they now don’t recall as important.
  • The psychic enchants them with her vague, generic claptrap. Naturally, despite the fact that she is willing to commit to more precise locations than Danie, they still don’t find any skeletons.
  • With only bone fragments to go on, they send the lot to be analysed for DNA. Predictably, amongst the bits and pieces of chickens, dogs and pigs, they eventually find a few bone fragments that can be shown to be human, from six individuals – four male, two female.
  • They take DNA from the mothers of the missing girls… but the DNA in the bone fragments is too degraded to make a match.
  • I’m going to explain that again slowly. No skeletons of little girls. No skeletons at all. Tiny fragments of bone, a tiny fraction of which were identified as human, two thirds of which were identified as male.
  • Carte Blanche then previews the show to the parents, who seem to accept the finding of partial, unidentified remains six blocks from van Rooyens house as some sort of closure.
  • No doubt in order to avoid looking like scum for re-opened old wounds with no conclusion, Carte Blanche offers two psychologists to council the grieving parents. One of the psychologists is a popular TV personality “Dr. D”, who appears regularly on SABC’s “Three Talk with Noelene”. The trifecta of prime time exploitation is complete – pseudoscientists, psychics and pop psychologists.
  • Danie Krugel is hailed as a success. The scientists want to do more tests. Carte Blanche promises to hand their findings over to the police. The End.

I ask you this – if a policeman had claimed to have made a breakthrough in the case, while investigating old evidence, and led forensic experts, archaeologists and anthropologists to an empty plot within spitting distance of where van Rooyen lived and died, and days and days of digging revealed only fragments of bone, from animals, men and women, and no conclusive identification of the bones as belonging to the girls, or dating of the bones to see when they were buried, or even any way to prove that the few female bones belonged to girls and not women … would we be celebrating it as a success? Be honest – we would be bitching about the waste of time and claiming those bones could be anyone’s.

In my opinion, this has been a shameless exploitation of the families of the missing girls, and of their memories. All I can say is that there was a time when Carte Blanche was a respected news programme, but this latest travesty has proven that they are as low down dirty as the SABC. To those who pay good money to watch this garbage – you should write to Multichoice demanding your fees for July be paid back.

Update: George Claassen, Director of Sceptics South Africa, and former science editor of Die Burger, has written a guest column on News24 giving his opinion on the topic.

Also, as one visitor has pointed out, you can leave your comments on the episode on the Carte Blanche website if you feel strongly one way or another. Unfortunately you will need to sign up as a site member to do so.

Update 2: There is now a Facebook Group “Carte Blanche have finally lost the plot completely”. I finally popped my facebook cherry for no better reason than to join this group.

Update 3: another journalist, Gill Gifford, actually doing her job and reporting on the other side of the story, instead of falling over herself to lap up Carte Blanche’s sloppy seconds like the rest of them. Good on ya, Gill. And then there’s this article – interesting how quickly the story changes when the critics are finally given a voice. Suddenly the machine has a name: the Matter Orientation System (MOS)… although personally I would have gone with Particle Orientation System, or POS. According to a spokesman, “Controlled environment testing is currently under way” – fantastic! I can’t wait to see the results published in a peer reviewed journal. And lastly, Danie is now claiming that his discovery may be evidence that van Rooyen also preyed on little boys. I… just… don’t have the words. 

116 Responses to “Pseudoscientists, Psychics, and Pop Psychologists: Danie Krugel resurfaces on Carte Blanche”

  1. I don’t know why Danie’s dicking around with locating people anyway. If he could recalibrate his Magic Finding Machine to track down keys and socks, he’d make millions.

  2. Daniel Rabe Says:

    While I am also as sceptical as you on this man’s claims, I would love to be proven wrong. This is your blog and you have the right to rant as you see fit, yet I am amazed at how this man seems to make you froth at the mouth. You talk about how his “method” uses DNA, yet I have noticed that he does NOT claim to use DNA. In fact it appears to that his method was primarily developed for use in the mining industry to find deposits of minerals – specifically diamonds. The finding of missing children (he seems to have a rather good track record here although not empirically proven) seems to be a by-product (side-effect) of the main process.

    Is it all a hoax?

    The Carte Blanche piece was indeed sensationalist, and the use of the clairvoyant was tantamount to ruining their own credibility. They did find human bones, very disturbing, but unless, as you mentioned, dated (carbon dating perhaps?) we will never know how recent those bone remains may be. If indeed they are somehow able to link them to the missing children, then I think a lot of us healthy sceptics will be eating our words but will be glad we were wrong.

    You, however, will be rather publicly embarressed and I would like to think you would be big enough to make a public apology as a lot of Danie Krugle search links on the net lead to your blog. You did mention about how he “looks” like he could resort to violence etc. which I thought was rather damaging to your own credibility.

    In short, no matter what our opinion, we will all be watching events very closely – and maybe someday you might even have the satisfaction of blogging a very smug “I told you so” article.🙂

  3. residentRsole Says:

    moonflake: I agree with your analysis. And I was certainly not surprised to see that “Doctor” Dee was involved. Pretty shameless of her counselling brokenhearted women on camera.

    Daniel Rabe: Two words for you: confirmation bias. Carte Blanche only showed us the hits and not the misses. This is something that Rupert Sheldrake does all the time. It’s basically falsifying data.

    Yes, I also didn’t hear any mention of DNA. He claims to use quantum physics (don’t they all ?). Whatever he uses, I don’t see how it could work. I don’t see how he could build a device that interfaces with his laptop. I am in IT and have engineering experience. I have trouble getting off-the-shelf devices to work with the programs that I write. So, how is it possible for Krugle to build something exotic and get it to talk to his laptop ? If he can, then he is fucking genius.

    Danie Krugle phoned moonflake on her way to work earlier this year after obtaining her number somehow. That’s usually a good sign that one is dealing with an individual who does not take kindly to criticism. I find it reasonable to assume that Krugle could be violent.

    Even if the bones are linked to the missing children, it’s not unreasonable to expect that van Rooyen buried his victims in the open field near where he lived. I am not an expert in this area so I don’t know if this is what killers normally do with the bodies of the victims. But, anyway, the Carte Blanche team found nothing. Which means that we can only speculate as to what happened to the girls. If I am not mistaken, there is no proof that they are even dead.

    It is my view that the Carte Blanche team behaved irresponsibly and has done tremendous damage.

  4. Moonflake, I 100% agree. This guy is an absolute quack and it’s shameful that Carte Blanche is running these stories. It ruins their credibility in all future reporting.

    What a disaster for a once reputable station.

  5. the first article that came out about Danie’s device states that the inventors said their device uses DNA.

    I will certainly apologise to Danie the moment he offers real evidence his device works. Remember, any scientist and any court of law will tell you that burden of proof lies with him, not with me. The very moment that Danie publishes the double-blind, scientifically controlled, successful results of testing his device, in a peer reviewed engineering or physics or forensics journal, I will be the first person shouting to the internet about the new dawn in human knowledge.

    Until then, I reserve the right to be critical of his claims. And so should you. There can only be two conclusions here – either the device doesn’t work and he’s stringing desperate people along, or it does work, and he’s hiding the greatest scientific discovery in history in the backwaters of south africa, refusing to share. Please explain to me exactly which of these versions doesn’t make you froth at the mouth?

  6. Daniel Rabe Says:

    Yes it is true, Quantum Physics is the snake oil of our time. It just sounds so cool and mysterious to us laypeople.
    But I also don’t profess to completely understand the workings of my microwave, which 30-odd years ago was also a device viewed with great sceptiscm when it was announced to the common folk.

    All I am saying, is that before we all rush to grab our pitchforks and torches and head off on a witch hunt, we should at least give the man a reasonable length of rope on which to hang himself. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

    I have salespeople, estate agents and all kinds phoning me even after being asked not to (with some vehemence). How they originally obtained my number is also subject to debate – using your logic, is it also therefore “reasonable” to assume that they too are subject to violence?

    A blogger can be equated to a columnist in a newspaper. They express opinions on a public forum. Ask any reporter or columnist whether they ever receive calls from people they previously wrote about. Were all these people potentially violent? I think we should keep the hysteria out of this and stick to what we know about this guy and his claims – which is basically nothing right now.

  7. Daniel Rabe Says:

    moonflake, you are encouraging healthy debate and that is great in any society – but I just have a problem with any society that says a person must “share” the products of his/her labours. If he invented it, and chooses to grow petunias in it, thats his business.

    Ooo now I am frothing…. no wait… that just beer.😉

    residentRsole: if he has invented something even a fraction of what he claims it does, then yeah is a freakin genius and Bloemfontain will be back on the map again. *lol*

  8. FYI why exact words were “I don’t trust Danie not to organize a shallow grave for the both of us, only to have us be reported missing so that he can ‘find’ us with his ‘device’.” I did not claim this had anything to do with the fact that he phoned me, although I will admit that contents of the conversation are contributing factors to my general distrust of him. And it was said with more than a small dose of sarcasm. However, there is a grain of truth, and i personally wouldn’t want to come into physical contact with him because, in my opinion, he is either utterly insane, or so invested in his fraud he might go to lengths unexpected. But that is only my opinion, as the tagline to this blog clearly warns.

    You raise a good point about Microwaves, and let me expand on that point – because any new technology is both revolutionary and potentially dangerous, it undergoes stringent tests and quality controls. The first thing that happened with the microwave is that the man who discovered the principle patented it. Then he started a company to build them, with the first practical commercial model being introduced nine years later. It was another twelve years before it came into popular household use. In this time, it has gone through countless safety and quality tests, with countless related publications in engineering, food safety and food chemistry journals.

    So ask yourself – we demand this level of rigor from a kitchen appliance – why not Danie’s device, which could save lives? It’s been three years since he invented it… isn’t that enough rope yet?

  9. GeneMachine Says:

    Carte Blanche should be deeply ashamed of the garbage they showed last night. But of course they won’t be. They have got a long history of supporting pseudoscience, this last affront to credulity being just the latest.

    You might remember that it was Carte Blanche who provided an early platform for the AIDS denialists and presumably only stopped doing this when the body count got too embarrassingly high. Any other crank who crept out of the woo-woo -dwork was given an uncritical platform, most notoriously the crackpot and his Non-Newtonian motion machine.

    When it comes to science, don’t believe anything produced by Carte Blanche. If they had even the sightest wish to have a scientific look at Krugel’s claims, a simple controlled test could easily have been set up. But no, all we have are some objects scattered around a room or the countryside – standard fodder for competent cold-readers. And now we have the word of a policeman that friend Danie did indeed find a body. Danie was a cop. Hmmmm……

    The biggest giveaway however is the use of the term “quantum physics”. When that phrase is used in anything but highly complex sub-atomic physics, my bullshit detector screams. As the great scientist Richard Feynman said: “I think I can safely say that nobody understands Quantum Mechanics”. (Sceptical readers and viewers of The Secret will come across the same phrase to somehow throw a scientific cloak of that vomit.)

    I understand Krugel is a security guard with no academic background. Okay, Einstein was a patent-office clerk. But I’m not holding my breath that Dan the Man is going to overthrow vast areas of physics and biology anytime soon.

  10. Daniel, you say he shouldn’t have to share… i’m sorry to tell you that this is the way science works, and it’s WHY it works. One man on his own can make mistakes. An entire world, countries and universities and fields working together, can spot mistakes and iron out issues and come out at the end with an answer that is safe and true.

    On top of that, as others have already pointed out, patenting a device is exactly how, legally, you prevent others from stealing it. If Danie really wants to protects the fruits of his labours, he needs to protect his invention legally – that he refuses to do so is highly suspect.

    Danie is claiming that his device is science. I am telling you, as someone trained as a scientist, that his methodologies are as far from science as possible. Submitting your theories to the scrutiny of your peers is why the scientific method works, and why things like microwaves and vaccines can be certified safe. Danie claims his device uses a unique ‘energy source’ – how, exactly, do we know this source isn’t pumping out carcinogenic radiation? This is just one example of a very good reason that if he wants to be taken seriously, he needs to come to the scientific table.

  11. Help me Danie Krugel! I lost my dark glasses this weekend after drinking too much Tequila. If your Magic Finding Machine can locate them, I will devote my blog to supporting you as avidly as Moonflake opposes you, while shielding my eyes from the harsh rays of the sun.

  12. residentRsole Says:

    Daniel Rabe: There are many people criticising Krugle but moonflake took it one step further by contacting Carte Blanche. Krugle took the time out of his busy schedule (supposedly his hands are full finding all those missing people) to phone moonflake – maybe Cartle Blanche passed on her details to him ? He clearly does not like scientific criticism, despite his claims that his invention is based on “science, science, science”.

    I find your comparison to sales people incorrect. They probably got your name from ETL. Are you claiming that stalkers who harasses women by telephone are not prone to violence at all ?

    Let’s say that he did invent something amazing. I insist that he at least subject it to scientific testing, and, if it works, certification. The problem with Krugle is that he is doing more than “growing petunias in it”. He is misleading many desperate people.
    Also, I am very strongly in favour in the advancement of human knowledge so I find the idea of holding back a discovery intolerable. So, if he has something, he should share it.

  13. Daniel Rabe Says:

    “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

    –From Hamlet (I, v, 166-167)

    Don’t get me wrong, I am a sceptic, but I would prefer to keep an open mind to those things that I cannot understand.
    I think we all agree that all this could have been handled in a more scientific way. If we could get this thing properly tested using controlled tests in a lab we would all be much happier. Will this “invention” dissapear without a trace into the murky depths. Probably.
    If it turns out to be legitimate, then the inventor and his backers are entitled to make bags full of cash after sharing it with humanity.

    And hopefully his power source doesn’t cause abnormal growth of moustaches as I suspect it does.

  14. This show annoyed me so much, I went to the CB website and left this comment:

    Tonight’s show was very disappointing. I was one of the viewers lured in by keeping things ‘secretive’. I am currently pursuing my masters in theoretical physics. Too often I see crackpot ideas placed under the heading ‘Quantum Mechanics’. In every instance, the crackpot idea has nothing to do with Quantum Mechanics.

    Krugel’s ‘tech’ is not possible. I wonder if he realises that he could submit it to the Randi foundation for analysis and potentially win a million dollars. I wonder why he hasn’t done this. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62371

    Bringing in a psychic further reduced Carte Blanche’s credibility. What an insult to intelligence. I shall never watch another episode.

    Dave

    Your (moonflake’s) summing up was nicely done. Have mailed it to anyone I’ve mentioned the story to.

  15. John Anderson Says:

    I agree with Daniel, you do seem to have a personal vendetta against Danie and his development team.

    For new readers who have not read your previous blog, I would just like to remind them of the reasons behind your vendetta.

    moonFLAKE spoke with Danie in a telephone conversation where Danie told moonFLAKE that he should come to Bloemfontine and view the device in action for himself. MoonFLAKE asked Danie to fit the bill for the plane ticket and of course Danie refused. I must add that it is totally pathetic that a grown man cannot afford a discount coach ticket… pitiful really. MoonFLAKE then expected Danie to fly himself and his machine to Cape Town… surprise again when Danie refused. Didn’t mention that one in this blog did you MoonFLAKE.

    I think it’s quite tasteless how moonFLAKE discredits Danie’s technology without even knowing what drives it. As Daniel Rabie just pointed out, Danie never said he was using DNA as driving mechanism… who knows how advanced this proposed technology really is? It is easy to pick apart a Carte Blanche report when you’re beating each end every sentence sequentially. Yes they made mistakes… but so have you.

    MoonFLAKE, you should be an armature coffee shop critic and stop barking at the big dogs when you piss like a puppy.

  16. residentRsole Says:

    Daniel Rabe: I used to think in the same manner that you do now. Hell, I even used that frikkin’ quote from Hamlet. Problem is, is that I kept my mind so open that at one point, my brains fell out. Then two physicists encouraged me to behave like a genuine scientist. After all, I have the degree so I may as well try😀. A good way to start is to read what James Randi has to say. And the fact that absolutely no one has made it past the prelim stage of his paranormal challenge for the past thirty years is pretty hard to ignore.

  17. Daniel Rabe Says:

    Thanks for the reference, I will definitely look his work up. Have you read Richard Dawkin’s Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder?

  18. residentRsole Says:

    John Anderson: Since Danie is making the claim, the burden of proof is on him. Besides, why can’t he enter the JREF million dollar challenge ? What’s the matter ? Doesn’t he want a million dollars ? It’s not Zim dollars, it’s US dollars.

    Moonflake gave a link earlier to the SABC News website where Danie Krugel did claim to use DNA. Perhaps SABC misunderstood him ? Anyway, it doesn’t really matter.

    Danie Krugel has offered no genuine evidence that his device works. He refuses to allow genuine scientists to analyse and test it. Yes, he did invite moonflake, who has an M.Sc, but did he really expect her to make the trip ? I doubt it. I think that he was counting on her not to. Even so, he probably would not allow her to set the conditions for testing.

  19. residentRsole Says:

    Daniel Rabie: Yes, I have read several books by Dawkins including that one. You can find Randi’s writings at http://www.randi.org.

  20. John Anderson, if that is your real name:

    Are you saying that MOONflake has a vendetta against Danie Krugel because he refused to buy her a plane ticket? That is what it seems like you are saying.

    In my view you have the cart before the horse, since MOONflake was critical of Danie Krugel long before he phoned her up and made promises of an important announcement that he has yet to fulfill. Indeed, Danie may also have the cart before the horse, since his invention delivers such a low level of accuracy that Carte Blanche called in a psychic to improve his accuracy. That is a bit like throwing rocks and finding things where they land, and that is a far better illustration of why MOONflake, and myself, think that Danie Krugel is not the inventor of a useful device.

    To use your crude simile, Danie has shown us no real evidence that he is able to piss at all.

    I would still like to find my sunglasses, though.

  21. John Anderson Says:

    Alright, now I have scowered for information and it is true… there just isn’t enough evidence. I will refrain from adding to posts when my personal and work stresses are as high as they where when I posted above. My frustration was with the continued persecution of Danie. Now I realise that the persecution is justified because of his own approach to his ‘discovery’.

    Danie, it’s time for you to show the world your invention… I cannot deffend you until you show us something. I know you’re reading this Danie. Give the world what you have.

  22. John Anderson Says:

    Oh and Moonflake, I sincerely appologize. You are correct. I was wrong. Danie needs to produce for this to go further. Sorry for what I said.

  23. VoiceOfReason Says:

    I’ll never understand my countrymen. All non-scientist, moany groany “I’m currently disadvantaged” armchair cynics get on their high horses when Mbeki and Tshabala-Msimang make dangerous statements denying the scientific basis of HIV/AIDS. However, then Krugel comes along with an invention so far removed from reality, it’s laughable, and then those selfsame science plebs are all “yeah, but, let’s give ‘im the benefit of the doubt; scientists are narrow-minded and tend to be wrong”.

    You cannot trust your average scientist to be right about cellphones, HIV/AIDS, Viagra, paternity testing, quantum physics (cough), nuclear bombs and avionics (and all the incredibly high tech stuff your life depends on every day), and then suddenly go off claiming that the same people are a bunch of conspiring rumour mongers who are just jealous that Danie Kurgel got their first… Sod it people, Tim Berners-Lee got their first with the WWW, and I’m not off bashing him. Enough of the conspiracy already.

    I sometimes think the masses are reverting to the dark ages again. This is alchemy, pure and simple. The stereo-typical alchemist transformed k*k into gold. Same here.

    The most suspect thing about Danie’s invention is its uncanny ability to find whatever DANIE is supposedly looking for, as opposed to finding the biggest or nearest sample of chemically identical material. Hide a tin of oil, and he finds THAT tin of oil, as opposed to finding Sasolburg or the nearest filling station. The calibration accuracy and noise filtering abilities on that machine are just incredible.

    What also bothers me is how the hell did he manage to find a BETTER reading after they brought the bigger hair samples to Bloem (!!!), right with the machine, after they caused substantial interference from 100’s of kms away. Why don’t those hair samples throw the machine completely out of kilter when they’re in close proximity of it? Or did they just shield the samples by putting them in some Gaussian cage (in which case it would have been much cheaper to just shield them in Gauteng by chucking them in the nearest )?

    So many questions, answered by so little “science, science, science”.

  24. I think as in all things time and public scrutiny will reveal all

  25. Stephen Says:

    Time will maybe reveal in what old age home Danie will end up, because I can spoil the ending of his invention for you now… IT IS A LOAD OF CRAP

  26. FlatWorld Says:

    Always painfully interesting to read the skeptics! They normally use some out of context law somewhere to despute the fact that the earth is round! They don’t contribute to this world, they just subtract from it! They use words such as “Bloemfontein” and other rascially implied statements to try to disprove the possibility that something would be possible! They know nothing about science and about the possibilities of science. Go read the works of Professor David Bohm, renowned physicist, to see how two complete seemingly unrelated points in space can actually be related! Newton’s laws are under threat in any case friends. Einstein already subjected them to his theories. Scientists have learned that you have to describe the context in which your theory seems to be true for it to have any real validity! I don’t think Danie needs to prove anything to you and there is no reason why he should be humiliated for the possibility to get a few lousy bucks! He will get easy funding when and if he needs it without the embarrasment! At this moment, what is important is that Danie gets the opportunity to help as many people as possible and that the secrets of his equipment remans protected. If he can’t help in cases and turns out to be a fraud, then he should be exposed but from what I can gather he has more than proven his technology with valid cases and he should be allowed the opportunity to continue to do so! For somebody on this site to state that he should not be allowed a change to find a missing person because their psycopathic blindness won’t allow them to look further, just shows why the world does not need you! Also, to read on these skeptics sites that the supporters of Free-Energy are actually proponents of perpetual motion are so far fetched so as to be a perfect illustration of a fraternity that just talks and parrots each other but never reads or listens what is actually been said! I have never seen a Free-energy machine in my life but I have read a lot on what they say and I have never found any evidence that they are talking of perpetual motion. Zero-point energy is actually been researched in more formal capacity at many universities, and I suppose you won’t know what it means because you need to understand enough of quantum mechanics to be able to relate to this! Play the ball man and leave the person out of it!

    Thw way you argue Moonflake is actually funny! You repeat the complete transcript of the show and use words such as Gosh, “Colour me shocked” etc. to disprove it. You use an argument that somebody used somewhere else that there is not enough DNA to do the analysis but we haven’t heard any reference to DNA analysis in any case! This has nothing to do with DNA analysis! Whatever you make of it or we make of it doesn’t matter but you are making conceited assumptions that are just not true! Frankly, you are too conceited to realise that you are an idiot because you are incapable of having an open minded approach to anything! People like you are never inventors but destructors and we had you burning people on the stake for centuries even though they had the prove of their convictions in their hands! My question is, what motivates somebody like you to block the pursuit of happiness of others when they haven’t really done anything wrong. If somebody believes in Jesus, leave them in peace if they haven’t attacked you with their beliefs. You may get a lot of pleasure out of your Blog but as a human being you are a disgrace and a failure! I personally will watch Danie with interest and if he fails he fails and if he succeeds he succeeds. As most of what we call Science today are actually based on theories with no concrete absolute proof becaue we can’t really stand on the outside to prove it objectively (Heisenberg) and scientists are still searching for the “Theory of Everything”, we can only use it to prove within context and the word “truth” can not be used! Anybody who claims he can is an idiot and hides his inferiority behind the big shell of conceitedness that he has to babble into space continuously in order to suck his energy from it!

  27. residentRsole Says:

    Flatworld: Your statement is mostly an ad hominem attack.

    Yes, it is true that some sceptics are actually pseudo-sceptics. And I know that moonflake’s writings can appear arrogant at times but this blog is just her way of blowing off steam and expressing herself in a carefree manner.

    Newtons’ Laws are not under threat. They are just a very good approximation of Einstein’s relativity at low velocities (non-relativistic scenarios). Imagine trying to solve geodesic equations for everyday situations. They work pretty well even for guiding space probes to objects within the solar system over millions of miles.

    Moonflake is not blocking progress, pursuit of happiness, etc. She just wants evidence. Is that too much too ask ? Besides, why hasn’t Krugel entered the million dollar challenge ?
    It has happened that some unscrupulous members of the scientific establishment, out of jealousy and petty revenge, behaved like schoolboy bullies. But they died off and got out of the way.

    It is not true that science is “actually based on theories with no concrete absolute proof”. That may apply to String Theory (which Brian Greene admitted in a radio interview recently is not testable) but the rest of science is based on hard evidence. We may never come up with the perfect model of the universe but we will keep getting closer and closer. And, so far, I think we’re doing okay. Also, you should know that science is damn hard and damn expensive. We don’t really need to stand on the outside to observe phenomena of nature. For example, it is possible for a two-dimensional intelligent being to determine whether it is living on the surface of a three-dimensional torus or sphere.

    David Bohm was a great scientist but in his old age he began to fall for woo-woo. I once was told that Vigier also lost his judgement in his last days.

  28. FlatWorld Says:

    PEER REVIEW AND GETTING PUBLISHED

    There is a simple rule that applies when you want to publish scientific information. Once you publish it, it becomes public domain and you have no rights to it anymore and you can’t patent it as well! Your name may be connected to the “breakthrough” but anybody can do with it what they want!

    If you decide to patent something, you have to do it thoroughly so that your patent is respected in all countries. It is a very difficlult thing to do and in most cases only big corporates can feel fairly safe to do this because you have to be able to fight international courtcases!

    Patents protects your intellectual produce but it doesn’t prevent access to it! Once a patent is accepted and even before it is issued a patent, it becomes public knowledge.

    Peer review mechanisms are elitist inventions for the exclusive club! They are powerful in that they represent the accepted intelligent elite minds at the major Universities and Corporations! It is unlikely that a “pseudo-scientist” will be allowed access to this club and it is very easy to see why not! Firstly, scientists have to belong to scientific or engineering societies and that can in most cases only be facilitated by other already on the inside with whom the new entrant has some kind of working relationship!

    To be published, a paper has to be written in a language that is acceptable to the peer reviewers! The english has to be “scientific”, the mathematics correct and related to past papers and references and the description of what has been established has to show how it relates to previous work on this subject.

    “Psuedo scientists” are thus a bunch of losers in this elitist world because they just lack the ability to cross this bridge! That is where Moonflake and other cringe in pleasure! It keeps them, if they should belong to this club, exclusive! Whether somebody stumbles upon something great is unimportant to people like them, greatness has nothing to do with this, only elitist acceptance will do the trick.

    We can probably argue this way or that way whether we have a scientific breakthrough here or not. It is possible that if this invention exists, that nobody will be able to explain it in scientific language because the breakthrough is too severe and there wouldn’t be enough past knowledge to refer to.

    I also believe such an invention should be protected, especially from some of the self proclaimed alcoholics that confessed to that fact above! If such a machine exists, it would also be a dangerous device in the wrong hands!

    Let me use a simple argument to justify the possibility of such a machine! It is not scientific and doesn’t claim to be an explanation! But it offers words where no words exist. If I say it, would you have any scientific, concrete arguments why I am wrong! I know you would think you have and you would vommit all over these pages but it won’t be right and it won’t be wrong, because you simple can’t know it. Only an all knowing can know it, whether a fictitous one or a true one.

    Let us say, there is a possibility that repeating patterns in nature are spacially connected! I am not David Bohm, so I write what I think at the immediate time! Can somebody prove or disprove such a possibility? May be easier to prove it than disprove it, I would suspect! If this were true, one may find that crystals may have spatial links to other crystals in a multidimensional sort of way! But those points of intersection will be endless because crystals with the same basic structure and nature (impurities excluded) are found all over the show!

    In the case of human hair, there may be a lot of repeating structure between different hairs although it may contain little DNA. Is that true, partially true or false? But one also expects the hair of one person to be quite unique and the similarity between hair strands forms an important premise for identification in forensic science.

    So if there was a theory that states a spatial connection between repetition of unique patterns in nature, wouldn’t there be a propability that a machine could be deviced by which this could be exploited. Let us say that we can measure some degree of spatial curvature in the presence of one strand and that that will give us enough information to the next repeating strand.

    The comment that tries to impress with Gaussian Noise and Faraday cages, what are you trying to say? If you don’t know or understand the basic principles of what belies this device, how can you even use these arguments! It is possible to create waves that penetrate Faraday cages, simply (not simply but in theory simply) by reducing the amplitude of the magnetic component of an EM wave, and to carry useful information on it right into the Faraday cage!

  29. VoiceOfReason Says:

    Ag, by Thor’s furry balls, this is why I “hatez the interwebs”. FlatWorld trying to be anti-elitist and self-important-elitist at the same bloody time. You just can’t argue with that because you’ll invariably end up offending either side of this single schizophrenic attack.

  30. i think we’ve found ourselves another cuckoo! or just another krugel (or himself, in disguise). i’ve opened a bunch of the links but after this trollop i don’t have the energy to wade through :S

    moonflake, i just want to thank you again for fixing toothpicks into my eyes – from astrology to hairdressing. there is such a thing as a closed open-mind, and it’s the most dangerous mind of all.

  31. FlatWorld: The elitist club of which you criticise to much comprises scientists and engineers specifically because these people have been trained to understand scientific and physical principles.

    You get other people in this word, who bleat on about “energy”, “quantum physics” and “resonance” without having a basic understanding of what these terms mean and how they are applied in the scientific world. These people may have their own very definite ideas about what these words mean, but they assume that the words are absolute. They assume that science is working from the same basic premise that they are. In the overwhelming majority of cases, they are wrong. I am not saying that you are one of these people, in a multi-dimensional sort of way.

    Now, in my experience as a non-degreed person who was, in fact, kicked out of the scientific community in my fledgeling years for lack of interest in my studies, scientific people are actually very welcoming of outsiders who take the time to familiarise themselves with scientific knowledge and method. Indeed, most of the greatest scientists the world has ever known have been self-trained to a greater or lesser extent. Indeed, scientific discovery is about training ones self in new phenomena, and thereby expanding the scope of human knowledge.

    Only two things are required. Transparency, and the explanation of new things based on our existing understanding. That is actually pretty easy to do. That does not, however, consist of advancing ad hoc theories based on scientific trivia, and playing the semantic game of challenging people to argue with you. That is an entertainment for philosophers and linguists, worthy in its own right, but not applicable in this realm of scientific examination.

    That is why we have dismissed your argument. Before you accuse those of us who are sceptical of Danie Krugel’s Magic Finding Machine of elitism again, please try to construct a logical, scientifically grounded hypothesis for how it works from first principles. All of us would be happy to discuss that with you, including those far more qualified than I. The only reason we mock (“colour me surprised”) is that our grasp of first principles tells is, in manifold ways, that what Mr Krugel is claiming is impossible.

    By the way, I found my dark glasses.🙂

  32. Bleh! Firefox ate my first sentence. That should read: “The elitist club which you criticise so much…”. Sorry.

  33. SadToSee Says:

    First thing Danie Krugel should do with his device is locate a new hairstylist.

    Something I noticed was in the graphic Carte Blanche displayed showing the signal output from the Danie Device. There was a big red line pointing from Bloem to Jo’burg. Then with the extra hair the line moved slightly to point to Pretoria.

    From the transcript:
    “So, we collected that too and once all the hair was with Danie in Bloemfontein, the equipment picked up a clear signal. The line ran straight from Bloemfontein to Pretoria.”

    The voice over, combined with the graphic they showed, gave the impression that the co-ordinates of the red line were taken directly from the Danie Device.

    Later in the program they showed an old black and white photo and they happened to use the same red arrowed line as in the original photo. Obviously the graphic they showed in the earlier part of the programme was fabricated.

    I was really saddened that they put these families through this. When Ruda left the show a few weeks back I was sorry to see her go, but after this I’m glad she’s gone.

    I wonder if Derek Watts was really having a break – or maybe he didn’t want to have anything to do with this shameless production.

    I’m joining Dave – I will never watch another episode of Carte Blanche ever again.

  34. To: SadToSee

    From a blog listed in these comments:
    “I’ve been told Derek wasn’t on holiday, but he refused to be associated with this story. Good on you Derek. To Ruda this is a disappointing end to a glittering career. Rumour also has it that this story may have something to do with her departure from Carte Blanche.”

  35. FlatWorld Says:

    I landed on this blog for the first time yesterday, directed by the famous search engine! I want to leave it now because I have never met such a sick bunch of people in my life! I believe the word “psychopaths” is highly appropriate here! No emotion at all! I read a little back in the history on this site and my suspicions were confirmed! This bunch has no interest in the main aim of what this Danie Krugel is all about and they want to force him on a complete different stage than what he has agreed to play on! I don’t think he is interested to prove himself on skeptic sites or on skeptic reward sites! Why should that matter to you! Your aim is to devour him and nothing that he is going to do is ever going to satisfy you! For a site that rejects conspiracies, you go a long way to prove how this conspiracy was fabricated by MNET and Mr Krugel in some of your previous writings!

    I noticed the comments of AJ on a previous writing in which he describes Danie and a clear picture develops in my mind of this person and I understand a lot of him immediately! Being an electronics engineer myself and having worked with engineers in various places, I know what many of them are all about! There are many of these silent types who are never looking for recognition, spending their time in labs changing the world into a better place and nobody ever knows the better of it! Their hairstyles may not appeal to everybody but it says a lot about them because it is not important what they looked like to the world! But the vultures, in this case I would like to say the “wild dogs” because this blog’s behaviour can be accurately modelled around “wild dog” behaviour. An animal in which a fem type is the dominant and males
    are cringing to please her and an animal which hunts in packs and rips the flesh out of their target while it is still running.

    What amuses me is the reference by gruesome to Madelein McCann and Moonflake to Mikayla Rossouw as examples of famous cases that Danie has to solve! Why should he chase only the cases that makes it to the newspapers!? If he solves this, what new trap will you device to catch him with!? You obviously don’t really have feelings and that is why unpublished cases means nothing to you! Your ego is fed by what is published and your ability to publish on it yourselves, you don’t want to know about the people that suffer in silence! That is where Danie is the better person!

    In my life, there is little time for creatures like you! You may despise me as well but I frankly don’t give a damn!

  36. Tech-King Says:

    Moonflake,

    You are twisting the facts on your summarized highlights, there are a few so called “facts” that is wrong… Interesting how you use these “facts” to state you argument. I have recorded the whole program so I know.

    Please don’ try to mislead the blog by presenting your own “facts”!

  37. Flatworld! Could you please try! Not using exclamation points to end! Every sentence!

    I do not for one minute believe that Flatworld is an electronic engineer.

    Jeez moonflake how did you attract all these crazies to your blog? Madness I tell you.

  38. I think the most damning evidence that Danie is full of it is the fact that he hasn’t been “disappeared” yet. If his device really did what he says it does, then the yanks would have hauled his ass out of Bloem and viciously interrogated the design specs out of his nut-sack.

    Tell me they wouldn’t want to use this device to find Osama.

    Hehehe…now THERES a challenge for Danie. I’m sure the states MUST have some of his hair clippings.

  39. Daniel Rabe Says:

    Ah ’tis amazing how emotional we all get about this subject. As a “pseudo-sceptic” (thanks to residentRsole for my new word of the day) , non-intellectual, non-scientist I don’t think we should flame moonflake for her opinion on her own blog. Personally I think constructive critisicm and reasonable debate opens us to new ideas. I am not too proud to admit that given new information and facts, I often change my opinion – this is called acquisition of knowledge aka learning. But all learning is subjective and based on the “facts” of the day. Science is not the only discipline that suffers from this … history, for example, is written by the victor and in many cases is also subjective.

    Regarding the Million Dollar Challenge that is mentioned – what I have seen and read about it, is that it appears to be a crackpot magnet. Anyone entering the competition is automatically painted with the “fruitcake” paintbrush even though it may at least apply certain verifiable testing standards to a claim (which all appear to be of the type that involves the so-called “paranormal”). Unless desperate for the cash, I can understand why a self-respecting and legitimate inventor would stay away.

    We will all get tired of this subject soon, and move onto the next contoversial topic in due course, but until then I think both sides here have made valid points. Of course, both sides will never agree and in the end we are all repeating the same old arguments.

  40. John Anderson: It is extremely rare that I see someone arrive here, be prompted to check the evidence for themselves, actually take the time to view the evidence, and adjust their world view accordingly. Even more rare are the few who can admit it.

    The hallmark of a sceptic is someone who is willing to change their mind if the evidence demands it. Thank you, thank you, thank you – your last comment makes all of this worthwile.

  41. FlatWorld Says:

    Durban scout, I will write in whichever style I want as that has nothing to do with the argument! You are typical of the type of person that can’t latch onto the argument at hand and then have to resort to pity tactics to distract from the real game! As a skeptic, which I assume you are (not believe but assume and I may be wrong), you use the word “believe” very lightly. Can you inconclusively proof that I am not an electronics engineer based on the facts presented to you? And if you proof it inconclusively can I expect the certificate to vapourise from my wall into thin air to live up to your prove? And the onus is not on me to prove that to you and I won’t, as with any of us we don’t have to hide our inferiorities by bombarding the world with la-die-da! You see, there I did the exclamation thingy again!

  42. FlatWorld says:

    Always painfully interesting to read the skeptics! They normally use some out of context law somewhere to despute the fact that the earth is round! They don’t contribute to this world, they just subtract from it! They use words such as “Bloemfontein” and other rascially implied statements to try to disprove the possibility that something would be possible!

    and…

    There is a simple rule that applies when you want to publish scientific information. Once you publish it, it becomes public domain and you have no rights to it anymore and you can’t patent it as well! Your name may be connected to the “breakthrough” but anybody can do with it what they want!

    Come on guys, quit baiting the troll. FlatWorld is obviously a skilled satirist and is just messing with you.

    FlatWorld: sorry buddy, the gig is up. Tip for next time – even the real alternauts aren’t quite this crazy, if you want the game to go on longer you should try toning it down a little… your impression of a complete lunatic is just too extreme to be believable.

    ““Bloemfontein” and other rascially implied statements”… thanks, man, i’m going to be chuckling about that one for days.

  43. Daniel Rabe Says:

    yay! A whole new debate on whether FlatWorld is the real thing or not!

    moonflake: what’s an alternaut? If I could venture a guess, an Alternative Reality Extra Vehicular Traveller?

  44. FlatWorld Says:

    Just to bring some balance to this conversation. I got highly upset about the rip-apart tactics that are used here and therefore I attacked equally! The reality is that there is no way to prove or disprove Danie’s device from the outside because we simply don’t have enough evidence! Any other opinion is just plainly arrogant! There is also no premise to force him to depart with his knowledge to anybody. He doesn’t owe it to anybody. He was attacked by arrogant skeptics telephonically when they had no business about it other than to feed their selfish beliefs. So my plea is here: Leave the guy alone, he is not driven by sickness, but by pureness. Let him believe in God, because the existence of a god can neither be proved or disproved and any other argument would be arrogant again. Scepticism in this context is a believe system, not a science! All scientists are sceptics and that is healthy but their scepticism is tied to rationalism and complete rationalism assumes complete knowledge and complete knowledge is not available to any individual at once!

  45. Daniel you would indeed be correct – also known as a Moon Buggy, or more commonly a Lunar Tick.

  46. GeneMachine Says:

    Flatworld: Proof is not a word used in science – that’s left for mathematics. Scientific theories requirer verified, testable evidence and should be falsifiable. No, one cannot prove that God doesn’t exist, but the likelihood of such an supernatural being existing is exceedingly small since there is absolutely no evidence to that effect. The scale is not 50/50 (exists/doesn’t exist). It is more like (0.000000001/99.99999999). And since the other citeria (testability, falsibility, etc) are not available, scientists will conclude that god is very, very, very unlikely to exist, and continue as if this was so until some evidence comes around to change that view.

    In the same way, Danny has made some incredible, fantastic, truly unbelievable claims that would totally revolutionise physics and biology as we know it. Of course he might well be the greatest genius ever to have graced our earth, but the probability of that must be very slim. In the absence of any evidence I must come to the conclusion that this is just another scam. I can only believe that you must be naively gullible to fall for that obvious nonsense.

  47. Michael Smith Says:

    I’m finding it funny how people can say that Krugel is selfish for not using his machine everywhere for everyone and at the same time saying that he’s already wasted enough peoples time and should just go away. You can’t make to negative boxes for the man that completely contradict and then juggle him between them to suit the argument for him.

    Fine, maybe he’s making it up, maybe he’s just lucky. If thats what it turns out to be – then thats what it turns out to be. If however he is able to do what he says i’d like MOONFLAKE to go through the effort invested in discrediting him to instead be put into an appology. Not just to him, but to everyone that could ever have typed in Danie Krugel and ended up at Moonflake-wordpress.

    I’m really hoping he’s right and that his device is real and able to do what it does. 80% for the fact it’ll help the world but a good 20% just to see how many people eat there words.

    Sadly i can see it already, that “other” negative box will be there and there’ll be people saying “why didn’t he do it sooner”, “why didn’t he release it to the public for free” etc etc etc.
    There will always be something negative to say about anyone, even about someone thats trying to design something to save lives despite the world laughing at him and calling him a fraud.

  48. The basic rule of the skeptic is Examine the evidence. Look again. Double check. Give it one final once-over. Then if it all adds up, you can say that it probably is what it seems.

    Lots of qualifiers in there, but that’s they way it works. This is, “I’ll believe it when I see it” taken to extreme lengths (because the eyes are easy to fool).

    The negative about skeptics is that they are unfriendly of new ideas. I want to know why, how, when and, again, why it works – and the best method to do that is look for a way to disprove something.

    The great positive is that if they find good evidence that contradicts their views, they examine it, and if it stands up to all the abuse all such evidence merits, they assimilate it.

  49. FlatWorld Says:

    GeneMachine: I actually don’t believe Danie’s invention, (if it exists which I give a fair chance) , would classify him as another Einstein! The extinct race of hobby scientists, pseudo scientists normally stumble upon there inventions and is clever enough to realize that not everything is normal. Everything leads from there! I can’t speak for Danie so I am making very broad assumptions and I definitely would hate to insult him! Before you say it is far fetched, read more on this “Aharonov-Bohm_effect”. Very difficult (for me) to understand in its formal format but I am sure the more popular explanations will help. Basically, what I understood in very loose terms is that an experiment done to say, an electron, which would put this electron in a certain position phase relationship, may cause another electron in a arbitrary point in space to be conditioned into the same phase relationship. It appears that two arbitrary point in space may be “strangely” connected. This is your chance to laugh if you know something about this matter because I am probably not knowledgeable enough to talk on this. But only laugh if you are qualified to laughed, in a professional manner of course! I would say that this should be investigated, i.e. there may be a possibility that if a molecular structure is tied in a certain way than that of an exact copy of such a structure (or close to exact) exists, that it may have a space related relation. LOL Buggers. If you discard this straight away you also have to discard the possibility of hyperspace theories, wormholes etc.. If two copies existed in closed proximity, they may keep their space relationship over distance, let say they form some kind of a wormhole. (This is not even a theory, this is fiction guys, try to enjoy it for what it is) Einstein general theory of Relativity was to some extend verified by looking at the bending of light rays in the proximity of a gravitational field. If we can detect a deflection from the normal straight ray of light of say a LED laser in the proximity of one copy of such a molecular structure and we can find a way of using the defelction to provide us on where the other side of the wormhole is in 3D space, we will have a device that can do what Danie’s device claims to do! Although I must have made your week very enjoyable so far, you must admit that you can’t scientifically discredit me. And although I couldn’t explain myself in tensor equations and quantum states, I have made an effort to say something. So this may be Danie’s dilemma as well. He may have the device and he got it to work but he may not be able to explain it to the “wild dogs”. Does this guarantee him the burning on the stake. Although I became very serious about this issue, it is because this may just be working and innocent children’s lives may be saved. Why should we discredit him when our curiousness should be carefully aimed at the inner working while he can carry on.

    Theory number 2: Danie is a government agent (Danie I am just playing the game here, don’t sue me please) and he has been used and is set up by the government to gave out the perception that missing children will be found within minutes if they dissapear. In this way this sort of crime and other types of crime may be attacked and the crime rate will drop. If this is true, I may be dead before the end of the day.😉

    About G.O.D.: I like the way you use capital G when you speak of him (her?). I like the fact that you call G a supernatural being! How about an old man with a beard and a stick? You can’t discredit GOD if you can’t define him! If you see him as somebody in a bif office working on plans to create the Universe et al than he is quite likely non-existent. But “Existence Exist”. We all assume that we exist, we experience it as real. Reality is as real as we want it to be. If we stop eating because we don’t believe that we really exist, we will have to cope with the effects! To seperate a Big Bang/Evolution approach from a GOD approach without knowing what it is that we call GOD does not make sense! Call everything GOD and say it doesn’t exist and “poof” we are gone! If “what is” started from Big Bang and rolled out through evolution to where we are now, is it different from calling it a slow creation process in which we are the observers. Does the fact that we call ourselves intelligent because we have skulls full of active neurons that spark continuously make us more intelligent than a seemingly random process that rolls out and expand and forms order and disorder and Entropy and Syntropy. In short, what I am saying is that you can’t prove or disprove the existence of an GOD except if you first define him/her/it as something you want them to be and then commences! It is open ended man!

    Moonflake: Yes I am an enlightened Lunar-tic and I don’t give a damn!

  50. Ahh it was satire… apologies FlatWorld I completely missed it.

    I have heard of the mysterious unexplained electron spin problem, it was the first thing I thought of when hearing that Danie’s device used quantum physics.

    However that still changes nothing. You don’t just “happen” across this sort of thing after years in the police force with no science background.

  51. Gawie N Says:

    I normally tend not to waste my time on obvious pseudoscientific nonsense, but, because I am a professional physicist I need to say this: Real physicists have nothing scientific to say about things that fall outside the scope of science. Of course they also reserve the right to have “believes” outside this realm but they always admit that there is no proven link with any known science. Quantum physics, although sometimes called “mysterious” by scientists in terms of the non-familiarity of its manifestations with classical or macroscopic experience is certainly not a means to exploit the “mysterious” as many laymen think. There is No such link, theoretical or experimental, to a “Spiritual” or other world. Yet self-proclaimed lay “experts” on quantum physics, who certainly, by weight of evidence know less than professionals all seem to have such a link established. An almost sure-fire give-away that pseudoscience is at play is when “Quantum Physcics” is claimed to be behind some mysterious operation or device.

  52. FlatWorld Says:

    Gawie N: So when does anything observable fall outside the scope of science! Certainly then there must be big holes in existing scientific theories! I thought we are trying to unite, not divide!

    When did anybody claim here that Quantum Physics provides a link to another world? Somwhere we are beginning to miss the point completely!

    It sound to me that the transistor is also a hoax! Those idiots claimed the same thing! I better save my documents before reality finds out about this!

    There are obviously recognised pseudo-sciences that are practised as a profession! Psychology is one of those! It has never been a science and it is based on certain premises that will never get it out of that paradigm unless the clay feet are removed! It predicts behaviour based on past experience but has no idea why it happens and it can’t be mathematically modelled except in Statistics!

  53. “LOL Buggers”
    i have got to say that he *is* amusing. i could see him standing on an empty beer case and shaking his fist. and then putting down the bottle of meths and wondering where all the fish went. then removed the “electrically engineered” crocodile clips from his nipples, and… wait. where am i?

    moonflake: when are you going to get the exploding heads thing going?? will it work through TCP/IP?

  54. Paul Putter Says:

    Moonflake, gotta love your blog. I just want to post a punt for my Facebook Group “Carte Blanche have finally lost the plot completely”. This is in response to the latest Danie Krugel offering, I’m sure we’re on the same page on the issue. Keep up the good work.

  55. FlatWorld Says:

    totalwaste: I can just imagine how you are going to evolve your “head Exploding” device through the peer-review mechanisms at scientific societies! Can’t be pseudo-science such a device, or would it be?

  56. Con-Tester Says:

    Who let all these damn whackos in here!?

    Danie Krugel was a policeman. In South Africa, that just about guarantees he’s a liar. Besides, he’s a part-time PI with a partner PI who specialises in missing persons cases, so he very probably still maintains sources of information in the SAPS. Why did he balk at the Sheldean Human case? Her hair was available. Why is he balking at locating Madeleine McCann? Her hair ditto. Being publicity-shy doesn’t even begin to cover it. Even less so when you’re a self-professed bible-thumping christian moralist. He could in any case work secretly if publicity’s an issue.

    As for Marietta-I-Can-Speak-To-Mumbly-Dead-People-Theunissen, she’s a wannabe John Edward, only slightly less smarmily motormouth. She “advised” the police in the van Rooyen case years before this elaborate little charade was concocted by Carte Blanche. And we all paid for this nonsense that inevitably will be cited by the supporting cut-outs as “conclusive proof” of these hucksters’ claimed abilities.

    Ruda Landman used Carte Blanche to lie to people who rely on it for accurate information. She has devalued the programme’s journalistic integrity and made a joke of her own credibility. Shame on her.

    I wrote a letter of dissent to Derek Watts (derek@carteblanche.co.za). I strongly urge all thinking M-Net subscribers to follow suit.

  57. residentRsole Says:

    Con-Tester: Thanks for the e-mail address. I think that I will write a letter too.

  58. wow! massive sh*tstorm. Moonflake: you’re awesome.

    Residentsole: you too.

    all the haters: don’t challenge the master, or you’ll end up crying.

  59. Antonio Says:

    August 2nd, 2007 at 12:02 pm
    Is it just not possible that according to quantum physics relative matter at the atomic level allways line up in relation to each other, that being the case, it is possible to look at the arrangment of matter at an atomic level and then turn it until it lines up at one point, Then do the same thing a couple of kilometers away and you should be able to triangulate the aprox. position of anything. Makes you think a little bit more huh!
    Keep going Danie Krugel, because you got me thinking about things I`d forgotten about.

  60. residentRsole Says:

    Antonio: Are you pulling our collective legs ? This technobabble of yours is ridiculous.

    duncs: Thanks. Yes, this certainly is a shitstorm. Sixty comments in four days is impressive. It must be a new record for Moonflake’s blog.

  61. residentRsole:
    Telling somebody two hundred years ago, that you have just heard your mothers voice over a thin copper wire, who just happens to be on the other side of the world would have been equally ridiculous.
    If the human mind can concieve of such a thing, then it is possible, no matter how ridiculous it may seem at this time.
    What I`m trying to say is that it may just possibly be true this Danie Krugel thing.He may have stumbled on to something beyond our present comprehension.

  62. Antonio – you may want to ask yourself why he only started claiming it was ‘quantum’ now, after three years. Also, he seems to have stopped claiming it extracts DNA, even though he used to when he first arrived on the scene. Changing his story, yet not apparently changing his machine… smells like fish to me.

    Yes, there is more out there than we can currently imagine and tomorrow’s technology is today’s magic. BUT in this case I’m sorry to tell you that all evidence points to someone using the word ‘quantum’ to obfuscate and confuse.

    I would seriously urge you to investigate the history on this guy before you rush to judgement. Just because someone claims their device is powered by quantum mechanics is no reason to just step back and give up thinking about it. Look at the rest of the evidence. Look at the surrounding circumstances. There is a difference between ‘it’s possible in theory’ and ‘it’s possible given this person, under these circumstances, within the scope of these events’. I’m afraid you are guilty of being bamboozled by a word, and not looking any further. But don’t feel bad – you seem to be in good company.

  63. Antonio: Please show me the (gauge) field assumptions and the Hamiltonian of the system you (or Krugel) would monitor that could make this thing possible. Thanks in advance.

    A note to those who know very little about QM: The above request won’t divulge how it is done (which is a whole other kettle of worms), only whether it is feasible by QM methods.

  64. FlatWorld Says:

    What is at stake here, only time will tell! Although Quantum mechanics was devised to explain physics at a microscale, for instance why the electron around an atom doesn’t just loose all its potential energy and move straight to the nucleus, QM research has tried very hard to explain Macroscopic events. Therefore, all sorts of articles appeared to explain macroscopic events, such as the graviton, for example! A lot of researchers have happened upon effects that are more explainable with QM than with anything else but that also ties into the macroscopic world. Let us not forget that things get very strange when we move into blackholes! QM is used to explain many effects in electronic devices such as the silicon Diode and the transistor and without QM it would be (next to) impossible to devise todays microcircuits. But even here things don’t always want to follow the rules such as with the Tunnel diode! To say this is QM and that is not QM becomes vague because nowaday most things needs to be explained in terms of newer theories and String Theory and M Theory etc are all new contenders that tries to cover the anomalies!

    I don’t like it when people crush other people without motivation! Therefore, I say, the best thing that should happen now is that Carte Blanche follow up as soon as possible and expose whomever has to be exposed and proof whatever needs to be proofed and in a less sensitive manner, where others can’t get hurt. Sit with a career scientist and devise a plan on how these can be illustrated effectively. Once the patent is registered the public can read up on it at any time!

    I also don’t like the way some people approach their science. For instance, I am an atheist and because a FlatWorld theory fits in better with my beliief system, I won’t tolerate anybody that disagrees.

    I believe in Evolution Theory but I also know there is a gap in evolution, the so-called missing gap that has not been solved and won’t be solved without a slight change in approach! But those who use some other basic premise, such as a grudge against an unknown god, will conveniently ignore this missing gap and still tie the title “respected scientist” around their own necks!

  65. Just thought I’d mention that Sureshnie Govender was talking about Danie Krugel on 5fm this morning – she was suggesting that the people trying to find Madeleine McCann should get in contact with him, so that he can help find her. What an excellent opportunity for him to shine, and get worldwide recognition… (excuse the sarcasm)

  66. Con-Tester Says:

    FlatWorld: For someone with so much to say you certainly are very poorly informed. I recommend you actually spend some quality time studying the things you write about instead of rehashing stale old two-minute sound bites.

    It’s just a thought, though.

  67. Wow, this all took a while to read. I think the idea of Danie’s machine is truly amazing and would love for it to exist. I feel we cannot conclude whether or not his machine would work because we have no idea how it’s meant to work. People have different interpretations of the word science, to me science is what we use to try and explain the things around us and how they work. So I guess ghosts would even have something to do with science if they exist. My problem is comes into play when Danie says his machine is based on science. To me that means he can prove it works, understands how it works, other people could reproduce his results and it wasn’t some special gift he was born with. Unfortunately he has done naught to help me believe him. A secret alternate energy source and the use of the word quantum really started ringing my alarm bells, to say he may have it working but he can’t explain just doesn’t make sense to me. The telephone could be explained scientifically, the same with the light bulb and flight, Danie seems to have something more like the clairvoyant. I don’t believe you have to have a PhD in nuclear physics to come up with a new invention, but it does become increasingly hard when dealing with hardly understood principles, by yourself. Tell me you spin a globe and were your finger lands is the spot and I’ll be happy, maybe even suggest further studies be done to try explain what seems to be more than luck, but don’t call that science! It just upsets me. As for Carte Blanche, they were pathetic IMHO, that was not investigative journalism. To start, what is the show about, the conclusion of the missing kids or the “new” invention? If it’s about the children it null and void because we know nothing about the new methods used. If it was about Danie’s machine the show was a waste of time, the didn’t try to get information out of him, they didn’t sneak cameras into his office or try to find out if this was possible at all by talking to other people in similar fields. What about where he gets his funding from, I mean satellites don’t come cheap. They just seemed to say you are amazing please help us, when it comes to scientifically looking at something they always seem to stuff it up, I recall a show about organ transplants and how people took on the other person’s personality traits. The thing is if Danie said he was born with a gift X% of people would have automatically switched off and not paid anymore attention. By saying its science people think “well it must be true”, it’s like the use of DNA by police. Using the word quantum make most people not want to hear more of an explanation, they just think “Wow look at what we can do now days” which isn’t right.

  68. sorry about there being no paragraphs (:

  69. Great post, glad to see someone else is coming to the same conclusions I am.

    Flatworld, Con-Tester is right, unless you’re being sarcastic, or something. Perhaps you are since you indicate that the flat world theory aligns better with your being an atheist than a spheroid world. As an atheist I just hope that no one thinks that atheists and flat worlders are in any way related.

    In case you were wondering what we’re on about, Flatworld:
    A graviton is a postulated quantum entity, not a macroscopic entity.
    Tunneling is a well know quantum event, so there’s no rule breaking there.
    No one actually knows what happens inside a black hole.
    No one is trying to crush anyone without motivation. What is actually happening is people being expected to swallow Danie Krugel’s “invention” without any motivation. He’s more than welcome to prove that it works.

    I’m also keen to know what change in approach is required to fill the gaps in evolution – by which I assume you mean the fact that no one has yet managed to trace all lines of evolution exactly. I’m sure all the evolutionary biologists are waiting with bated breath for you to explain to them what they must do to move forward.

    Alas, I suspect that Flatworld won’t read this.

  70. Con-Tester Says:

    CB: Friend FlatWorld must first substantiate his allegation by pointing out where, exactly, there are gaps in the body of knowledge called “evolution” otherwise s/he’s just stealing oxygen. Does s/he mean the theory or the evidence or maybe something else? Because these alleged “gaps” are usually a hollow ruse brought up by those with a creationist agenda. Biologists, geneticists, palaeontologists, etc. don’t debate whether evolution occurs; they debate how it occurs.

    As far as Danie Krugel is concerned, it’s more that people are expected to swallow his “invention” without solid evidence. Pushing people’s awe buttons is a cheap shot at motivation used by snake oil salesmen and charlatans and such. Krugel could very easily prove that his machine works in a controlled test without revealing how it works. Instead he’s all mystically monkish and grave about it. Usually that can be taken to mean that he’s hiding something.

  71. Sorry, I woke-up to this issue very late when I spotted it on a developers’ discussion forum this afternoon, anyway …

    It can’t be “quantum” – he’s just using the popular flim flammery phrase of the 21st century. Nobody really understands quantum physics, if you think you do then you haven’t read enough about it (Feynman). I have read just a little, which makes me think that I know everything :S … jeez, now I sound like a homeopathic healer – use less get more.

    It has been suggested by some who have a little understanding of QM that he is harnessing quantum entanglement. This is not feasible. If quantum entanglement could be used to relay accurate informantion then it would be transmitting information faster than the Universe’s big speed limit – and this is no pussy South African highway speed limit, this one you actually can’t break.

    So I went into an exploration of the possible use of entanglement to locate children. Take a look at http://argumentum-ad-hominem.spaces.live.com/ but if you think I’ll confirm it can be done on a 386 laptop with a strand of hair you’ll be mistaken. Oh, sorry, did I spoil the ending??

    FlatWorld: Hahaha, you are really trying hard to change the subject and “sucker some smarties” into another argument. We all see through your 12-year old games.

  72. Paul Putter Says:

    Dear CB

    I am offended by your suggestion that Flat Earthianism and atheism are incompatible, As both a devout atheist and supporter of FELFAT, I feel this is indeed a valid position. Clearly you do not understand the true nature of things. To learn more about modern Flat Earthianism, please go to the link below.

    http://www.cca.org/woc/felfat/index.html

    Yours, Paul Putter, atheist and FELFAT supporter

  73. GeneMachine Says:

    As a Facebook newbie I can’t locate the “Carte Blanche have finally lost the plot completely” group.?

  74. Gene: once you have logged-on, in the left application shortcut window click on “Groups”

    In the search box (on the right) type “Carte Blanche have finally” and you’ll find it.

    Open the group. Once in, click on “Join Group” on the right hand side.

  75. FlatWorld Says:

    Thanks all you wonderful people for setting me right! I was slightly misread, I never said I am an atheist! I use to tag myself like that years ago but I have moderated that to “agnostic”! Big change in anycase. I am definitely no expert on evolution theory and evolution (as with many other things). Yes, I believe evolution takes place. The missing link I talk about is roughly the one between Mrs Ples and Homo Sapiens. I can’t solve that for you because if I tell you what I read and may except as the truth, you may not enjoy it for what it is worth! I don’t know what “intelligent design” is all about but I do have a fair believe that the underlying structure of everything is of such a nature that if all life gets destroy today that it will eventually restart along very much the same lines as we know it now! It may even be possible that some new lifeforms appears without genetic links to previous lifeforms, i.e the basic initial process from zero to hero may still be happening

    I also didn’t say I believe in a Flatworld and it is interesting that Paul Putter brought that up. Is Paul Putter and Paul-Boer Putter the same person? If that is so, we may have shared some time studying together at university many years ago. I think I did see the felfat website before but I have little urge to read it. But I have always wondered why anybody would still believe in such a thing. Again, without shouting it down, it is better to find out why?

  76. Con-Tester Says:

    FlatWorld: You are talking about the suposed “missing link” (not “gap“) in the hominid evolutionary line. This is a myth that creationists and some IDers tell their children as bedtime stories to keep the big, bad secularist nightmares at bay. Have a good look at these Transitional Fossils of Hominid Skulls.

    Paul Putter: Nice one…

  77. Paul Putter Says:

    GeneMachine, you have to join the South Africa network before you can join the group. I should have set it up differently, but I can’t seem to change this option now. Sorry.

  78. Paul Putter Says:

    Dear Flatworld, if you re-read my posting you will notice that I was responding to CB’s statement that atheism and Flat Earthianism are incompatible, or something to that effect. The FELFAT site is well worth a read, IMHO.

    Regarding your question, Paul and Paul-Boer are indeed one and the same. Who the hell are you, then? Great to hear from a few of the oldies… I’m on Facebook under my full name, anyway, if you want to touch base. Long live Operation Dateline Dig!

  79. darth_fishy Says:

    Just wow…

    Firstly, good job to moonflake on an exceptionally interesting blog. Any chance you want to do the South African version of Bullshit? Might be fun and I suspect that you’ll be a cuter host than either Penn or Teller :p

    Ok joking aside, I’m just amazed at the gullibility of some people. Been following this case (if you want to call it that) since the Carte Blance episode. The more I dig around on the internet the more convinced I am that he’s a con-man. Just some thoughts more on the possibiities of his device on technical merit. I know very little of QM but I have worked with GPS devices, especially getting them integrated with computer software so I’m going to focus on that:

    (1) DNA extraction is a complicated process and takes a lot longer than a couple of minutes as his process does.
    (2) Any kind of QM activity should involve a large amount of energy. Not enough to carry around in the back of a bakkie though. (He does claim that his energy source is the best part of the device. So I’ll let that one slide).
    (3) There’s an incredible logical jump that is made in assuming that the DNA data can be converted to some kind of Quantum data or Information and then related to GPS co-ordinates. Essentially GPS works by the GPS device requesting a position from a number of GPS satellites (usually about 8 if I’m not mistaken). This means that some device needs to be able to receive the RF signal from the satellite to be able to determine its own position. Dead bodies cannot receive an RF signal. (I admit I might be wrong about a GPS device requesting a position but it still has to be able to receive it.
    (3b) Another point about GPS (but slightly different from the previous one) is that you generally need some line of sight to the satellites. In other words, in doors or underground or in cloudy conditions GPS is not as effective as normal. Another place where it wouldn’t really work is, say, underground, where bodies are usually found once buried.
    (4) Finally even if there was a way to find the location of a device using Quantum Entanglement or whatever he uses, that’s going to be virtually impossible to translate to GPS co-ordinates. The jump from Quantum Positioning (my own made up pseudo-science phrase) to GPS co-ordinates is just logically highly unlikely.

    Anyway, that’s just my two cents. Again, wonderful site moonflake🙂

  80. FlatWorld Says:

    darth_fishy: I agree with the GPS story here! The only use of GPS would be to get the reference at the point where the test is taken. It can’t have anything to do with the actual site of the object that is searched for! I think this part of the story was blown out of the water by Carte Blanche and others. If the device can provide relative coordinates it can then be related to an actual site based on the test site reference!

    By the way, the Weekend Witness from KZN had a follow up article on this matter on the weekend with the title: “SA inventor says he can help find missing Madeleine McCann”. It also seems that the police have found blood in her parents holiday flat according to other sources and that that may include them in the investigation. If the inventor was in touch with the parents it would become a very interesting story.

  81. GeneMachine Says:

    Paul – Thanks, I finally found it.

  82. Peter Braat Says:

    Two interesting quotes from recent stories:

    The first from YOU Magazine: (Well, can’t find the magazine now,) Basicaly Susan Puren (the show’s producer said that when they delivered the first girl’s hair to Danie he told them he could not do the reading then so they left. He then called them a week later with the location he had determined.

    This would have left him more then enough time to set up a ploy and get his story straight and PC loaded with necessary plots and whatever else he needed. This is obviously no proof of foul-play, but it does provide ample ‘opportunity’

    Then from the Sunday Cape Argus (taken from IOL; search for key-word krugel, the sotry is called: ‘Crime-solving’ gadget on the way).

    No one has yet examined the device. Puren’s understanding is that “what must be”
    a computer of some kind occasionally jerks to life and shakes briefly when it makes
    contact, which is why he must be alone when working with it.

    “he must be alone when working with it”

    Apart from Danie not be willing to divulge how the machine works. no-one can even observe him using it… The reason given is that it shakes briefly when it makes contact. Does it not shake when there are two people in the room???

    And now he is remoured to be selling the rights suddenly for ‘only’ R13 million, which seems way to cheap for such a device if it can indded do what he claims. Or could he be cashing in before being exposed? Or even trying to find a reason for not responding to upcoming claims for verification, as it will then be no longer his intellectual property?

  83. NyteShade Says:

    Hey MoonFlake, great blog.

    I just thought I’d mention a device I found that seems to work on similar (read bogus) technology. The Quantum Xrroid Consciousness Interface (QXCI) System.

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/xrroid.html

    The Quantum Xrroid Consciousness Interface (QXCI) System is claimed to be ” the most advanced medical assessment and therapy device in the world today!”

    Its some medical diagnoses device, invited by some professor with questionable qualifications.

    The reason I say that these devices work similarly is:
    1) They both claim to work on quantum physics
    The QXCI has been devised using the principles of Quantum Physics. . .
    2) Both claim to be able to ‘read’ (in some way or another) the source body of a hair sample, from anywhere.
    A California practitioner who advertises that sessions can be done “from the other side of the world,” states: If you choose to do a distance-type appointment, you will need to send a recent-as-possible sample of your hair in an envelope and your current signature on a 3″ x 5″ white index card. This will be placed in the QXCI so that the program may sample your body’s frequency.

    Also see more info here: http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2155691,00.html
    And here: http://www.leadthefield.co.za/scio.htm

  84. NyteShade Says:

    Re my last comment…

    Since this QXCI device has been around for a number of years (since 1985 according the source I cited previously)… perhaps that’s where Danie got his idea? ;p

  85. what last comment?

  86. Apathetic Says:

    It takes a lot to rouse me from my apathetic morass, but between Carte Blanche and moonflake they have done it.

    To FlatWorld et al and anybody who feels people on this forum aren’t giving Danie Krugel a chance consider this:
    Danie’s claim that his device works has already affected peoples lives in a very direct way, ie. the families of the dead children. It also affects the lives of people who are desperate to find missing loved ones. So if this device does not work we deserve to know that, or the families certainly do. Danie Krugel and Carte Blanche owe it to the families of all those people involved to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his device works. This is not a lone hero in a backroom somewhere working against the odds, this is someone who has publicly and shamelessly told people in a very public forum very specific details about their loved ones. He has also received fantastic advertising for this device for free, but really at this point we have no idea whether it works. He has found nothing.

    What it boils down to is 3 options:
    1)He is lying
    2)He believes it works but it doesn’t
    3)It works.

    To mess with peoples lives we need to know its option 3.

    I think that being skeptical is the only moral course to take in this debate.

    Thanks moonflake, your Karma is increasing (not that you believe in it of course).

  87. darth_fishy: thanks for the vote of enthusiasm! And yeah, you’re pretty much spot on with the fact that his device, which “works primarily with DNA using GPS infrastructure” cannot possible do either based on the very nature of both DNA and GPS infrastructure. It seems to me that he has watched a few episodes of CSI, read The Dancing Wu-Li Masters, and now thinks he’s in a position to fool people.

    Peter Braat: yay for the police! in the same article, the following is found:

    …Phuti Setati, the police media relations director, says Krugel refused to work with them to have the device tested.

    “The police welcome any initiative that is aimed at the prevention and detection of crime. However, protocols have to be followed before the acquisition of any scientific device.”

    Isn’t it a strange coincidence that the cops who support him are “his former police colleagues”, but that the official SAPS comment is that he refused to work with them to follow protocol and testing?

    And yes, when i read the “he has to be alone with it” comment in the Argus on Sunday, I nearly sprayed coffee all over the paper. Almost as bad as “compassionate quantum physics”…WTF? He has got to be making this stuff up as he goes along. The more he’s pressed for detail, the more outrageous it gets.

    NyteShade: yeah, Salman mentioned it already on his blog. Personally, I don’t think Danie does enough actual research to have heard about it, or he would have accidentally stumbled on some facts while he was at it.

  88. Paul Putter Says:

    Peter & others
    I agree with all of you that what Danie claims is way beyond our existing technology and most likely outside our current understanding of physics. If there is any truth in his claims, that would bring him an instant Nobel prize without doubt.

    For argument’s sake, let’s say that he does have a device that is capable of producing some kind of ‘resonance’ in the material that he is looking for, that can in turn be detected at a distance by his machine. I would surmise that at best, he could determine the direction of the target material. It would be feasible to then do multiple readings and triangulate the actual target position, probably with more accuracy the closer you get. This is in line with DF (Direction Finding) approaches in many other fields. He would then use the GPS to manage this procedure.

    Dunno, still sounds too dodgy to me.

  89. “that can in turn be detected by his machine”… well that’s where we come to a bit of a pickle, mysterious resonant signals aside. To detect a signal across the whole of south africa, at a distance where the curvature of the earth comes into play, you need some serious infrastructure of the sort used by telecommunications companies and the army. Unless Danie has the money to launch his own satellites, it doesn’t seem like he does have that infrastructure.

    I believe that the inclusion of the “GPS satellites” in Danie’s story is an attempt to explain how he can detect a signal across the country – at least he seems to understand he would need some sort of satellite system to overcome the curvature of the earth. It’s a pity that the satellite network he picked isn’t capable of transmitting signals – if he’d said he was using telecommunications satellites it might have been a touch more believable. But GPS satellites are utterly useless for sending a signal of your choice across the country. So even with your hypothetical scenario, there is no hypothetical way for him to ‘detect’ that signal short of launching his own telecommunications satellites.

  90. Paul Putter Says:

    Moon, that and a myriad other tech issues I didn’t even raise – signal to noise ratios, the list goes on and on. Like I said, instant Nobel prize, if he can actually do it. I’m no bookmaker, but I’d give very long odds on this one.

  91. WAH!!

    I had to read this all in one go, though I will confess to glossing over the huge bunches of text (I like to read things that have paragraphs). I will also confess to not understanding just about anything to do with science and not actually having an interest in it.

    If Mr Kurgel is not interested in showing proof or discussing his machine, I suppose he has that right and if that is the case he could at least keep it to himself or quietly find all the missing children. Do what is needed or be quiet, you waste time and money otherwise.

  92. Darth_Morbius Says:

    With all of the debates being thrown around, we seem to forget that this boils down to ONE thing: either Danie (and Marietta) are right…or…they are wrong.

    That’s it…can’t make it simpler than that. Either he is a con artist or he isn’t – there is nothing in between.

    A million posts on a million blogs won’t change this ONE underlying fact – either he is lying or he is not.

    Me…I’m not a betting man, but as the saying goes “if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…chances are: it’s a duck!”. I think Danie is a con artist and I am 100% convinced that he will be proved a fake.

    At the most simplistic level, one only has to apply Occam’s Razor: “All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one.”

    What are we going to accept -taking onboard ALL of the assumptions required that would need to occur for his machine to actually work…or taking the single assumption that he is a con artist?

    As Carl Sagan said: “For extraordinary claims, you need extraordinary evidence” – Danie makes the most extraordinary claims and seems unable to provide even the most simplistic of evidence…sorry, but as stated above…if it quacks like a duck…

    The only amazing thing is that the Producers of Carte Blanche were willing to take this bet against the integrity and validity of their own show – when this thing blows…and boy, it’s gonna BLOW… it WILL be the end of what was once a highly respected show…

    Pity…

  93. FlatWorld Says:

    I am beginning to wonder! Here is a story on Carte Blanche. It has been done and they have reacted very little on it! Lots of comments on websites. Who watches Carte Blanche and who visits sceptic websites. There is a target market for everything! How do you target the typical back suburb peadophile? If the impresion is created that somebody can trace missing little children that are abducted, wouldn’t it create fear with those who abduct them? If it reduces the number of abductions and killings, wouldn’t it have been worth the con?

  94. Darth_Morbius Says:

    Flatworld: Hmmmm……interesting perspective, but I am afraid that I will have to disagree.

    If we apply Occam’s Razor again – which is more likely? having to accept ALL of the assumptions required for your scenario (that they did this on purpose to dissuade peadophiles) or accepting the single assumption that the producer of this farce was conned by a second rate charlatan?

    Nope, sorry…comes right back to “if it quacks like a duck” – this whole story smacks of a poorly constucted con job and I find it desperately ironic that everyone EXCEPT the guys actually involved in this story seem to be debating the point!

    As I’ve said before – either the guy is a con artist or he isn’t. It;s not up to me to convince you of the technology or the intent behind the program. I have made a point NOT to debate the issue any more – I have my own convictions and time will either prove me right or wrong…

    As I’ve said before, though, I just find it sad that Carte Blance have seemingly gambled the reputation of their format in this manner… it’s Mama Jackie all over again – except this time they have NO excuse…

    I wonder if Derek will interview Ruda in the future episode on the “Danie Krugel Scam” and whether he will be as snotty and rude when he asks Ruda questions as she was when she interviewed Mama Jackie!

    I can see it now….Derek: “But Ruda, surely you cannot sit there and tell me that you did NOT see the flaw in Danie’s technology? How could you do this to the parents!”

    LOL…..🙂 Can’t WAIT for that to air….

  95. CompassionateQuantumPhysicist Says:

    How delightfully rare to find a Proudly South African crackpot. Compassionate quantum physics, indeed. Perhaps the reason he is often out by a few hundred metres is that the GPS system is set up to take account of small relativistic effects, but because basic relativistic principles are obviously falsified by Krugel’s device anyway (such as the apparent > c transmission of information via entanglement, if it is, indeed, entanglement that his gizmo uses) this calibration would be erroneous.

    Putting things together, I may know how his device works! He uses Google Earth, that much we know for sure given the printouts in the Carte Blanche show (which I just downloaded and watched). That’s probably where the GPS bit comes in (after all, everyone knows that it’s those magic GPS satellites which give us Google Earth pictures). He probably then uses GPS to get to the actual spot he identifies (or, he drives there using orthodox landmarks, but then when his handheld GPS device agrees with co-ordinates derived from Google Earth: that’s scientific confirmation!). The interesting bit is how he identifies the spots on Google Earth. But that’s probably where the `compassionate quantum physics’ bit comes in. Like dowsing. You see, he knows how two spacelike separated systems can be quantum entangled (both Zukav and Capra no doubt make big deals of this, along with the jargon). A missing person’s hair and their body are spacelike separated aren’t they? They aren’t in the same region of space! Therefore they must be quantum entangled! Simple syllogism. Logic, and science. The science was there, you see, but nobody linked it up before Mr. Krugel. Anyway, because we are all living in a holographic paradigm and all that, and there is this benevolent source of quantum consciousness which doesn’t play dice (because Bohmian mechanics is deterministic, if cheap) we are all linked. So, using *compassion*, which is quantum entanglement between spacelike separate conscious entities (it is an ability to `feel for’ someone else), he can identify where that person might have been! Such as in a vacant lot nearby to where their supposed murderers lived! Or, in the recent case he `solved’, in the vacant lot near the missing five year old’s parents’ house! But the latest results in compassionate quantum physics clearly show (I forgot the arXiv preprint number, forgive me) that a young man,who spends much time outdoors, in love with nature, is unlikely to be conquered by it (you square the amplitude of his life frequency to get probabilities, see, because even though Bohm’s mechanics leaves no room for probability, it is only the omniscient Lord who knows the full wave equation for all particles at all times), whereas said young man is much more statistically likely to be gallivanting around the country somewhere on a big adventure. So, chances are that’s the right quantum information to be forwarded to the parents. Cold reading is a lab technique long known to compassionate quantum physicists, unsure as to whether or not the cat really is dead or alive, but unwilling to be proven wrong either way.

    Thing is, I have no doubt that Mr. Krugel has convinced himself that he’s using science (very easy for someone who knows nothing about it), but he is also well aware that his device is unlikely to pass scientific scrutiny: yet since scientists are, after all, the same bunch of bastards who burnt Galileo, it’s only because they have a vested interest in keeping the `independent researcher’ down. The thought process is easy to understand: scientists are smart people. I’m not that dumb, myself. Therefore, if I find I can do something, and I can come up with a scientific explanation for what I’m doing, then I’m not making things up as I go along and possibly hurting and deceiving people en route, but I’m practising science. I am legitimate. I can continue doing what I do, and winning acclaim for myself, with a clean conscience, because I’m a scientist, not a loony.

    It is encouraging that the SAPS are taking an appropriately skeptical stance towards this whackjob. Disappointing, though, that they don’t seem to be taking steps to open a fraud docket.

    Even more disappointing that they let themselves be taken in by the Scientology cultists, who regularly run `training courses’ for them…

  96. anonomous Says:

    MOONFLAKE AND CO. I REALLY THINK YOU SHOULD TAKE TRIP TO BLOEMFONTEIN AND TAKE UP DANIE’S INVITE. CAN’T DO YOU ANY HARM. NORMALLY IF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO SCAM YOU IT’S FOR MONEY AND I DON’T HEAR OR SEEE HIM DOING THAT.

    IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HAVE YOU REPORT BACK TO YOUR BLOG ON THE FINDINGS AND PUT THIS ISSUE TO REST.

    SURE MANY PEOPLE WILL AGREE WITH ME. KEEP US POSTED AND LET US KNOW HOW IT GOES……

  97. Darth_Morbius Says:

    anonomous: first, use spell check and get the spelling of anonymous correct. Secondly, find the Caps Lock key on your keyboard and give it a tap prior to submitting your posts.

    Then – why is it up to Moonflake to prove Krugel right (or wrong?). Is it up to the atheists of the world to prove that god exists? I think not…

    Danie is the one who made the extraordinary claims – why should the sceptics go out of their way to provide the extraordinary evidence required to back up those claims?

    Finally – why should Moonflake (or anyone else) go to Bloem? If his device works, surely he doesn’t need the support structure of his old police buddies to find evidence? Clearly his “science” falls flat once outside that “magic circle” – hence the dissappointing results in the van Rooyen debacle…

    Tell you what – you keep US posted…

    PS> He must be making a killing somewhere – hence the upgrade from an old bakkie in the first Carte Blance story to his flash BMW in the most recent airing (or are the security gaurds in Bloem paid that well?)

  98. FlatWorld Says:

    Darth_Morbius, I think you and Moonflake are both cowards. It is not up to you to prove Krugel right. But since you and many others have claimed him wrong without verification, you are then entering the world of stinking little damned cowards that hide between your spelling check superiority when you obviously have nothing better to say. By the way, if somebody’s name is Anonomous, then it is just that. How can you tell somebody how to spell their own name? Maybe it is a beautiful acronym!

  99. Darth_Morbius Says:

    Flatworld> I am sorry that you feel this way.

    While I have no problem with someone who has an opposing viewpoint to my own, I find it interesting that you denounce moonflake and I as cowards… I do not believe that someone who casts a skeptical eye over (dubious) facts is a coward – quite the opposite, in fact! I would label someone who accepts, blindly, the facts presented to them as a “coward”..in the sense that they are too scared to admit the fallacy of their own belief system..

    I have, quite often, had to change my own beliefs based on new evidence or facts that I had not been aware of before and I have never denounced the individual who enlightened me to this “new” information as a coward – that’s what being a scientist (or intellectual) is all about, subjecting your own “proof” to the review and critique of peers.

    Where we do agree, however, is the fact that it is not up to us to add merit to the evidence provided by Danie.

    Like any scientist he has, to a limited extent, put his “theory” or “proof” out there for public review, scrutiny and assessment – and, I am sad to say, based on the evidence he has provided, we have no choice but to question the validity of his claims.

    You claim that our criticism of his technology is without validation, but I would argue that it is your SUPPORT of his technology that is without validation. He has, to my mind, done nothing that can, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered to be irrefutable proof of the technology he has claimed to develop – as a result any support you lend him is base purely on hearsay and conjecture!

    James Randi once said in an interview that he finds it interesting that we debate, endlessly, the validity of individual psychics and mediums – this, while we have not even proved whether psychic abilities by themselves are possible or even probable!

    I tend to view this debate along the same lines – we are debating the finer points of this so-called device while every single one of my colleagues who has a working knowledge of quantum physics dismisses the underlying premise to the technology… in other words, what are we debating?

    Finally, if I was rude to “anonomous”, I apologize – perhaps I was being facetious re the spell check… still, the Caps Lock thing is kinda sad, even you have admit that…

  100. Darth_Morbius, thanks for a balanced answer. You are wrong to state that I support this technology blindly! What I am doing is to stay open and bide my time until enough information is collected so that I can make a much better judgement. What got to me through the whole thread of this topic was the tone of the attacks that was levelled at this person without justification. By stepping on somebody in such a ruthless way and then to refuse an invitation to ascertain the facts for themselves is to me moral cowardice. You are right, it is nobody’s duty to prove this “technology” but if you have emotionally disproved it already, you automatically put a moral obligation on yourself.

    To say he has done nothing to proof his technology is also not neccesarily true. Maybe he did nothing to prove it to you but from what I can ascertain he must have demonstrated something a few times and to such an extend that there is a patent pending. I don’t know if it is true or not, maybe this guy is an Matrix implant and doesn’t even exist!

  101. Darth_Morbius Says:

    Flatworld> LOL – Love the Matrix scenario! You’re right…maybe he is just a rogue program!

    I must admit that you are spot on about the level of “fanatisism” exhibited by some of the opponents to the whole story – I myself have been guilty of exactly the same, hence my post that I do not like to debate the point any more. Too often, we skeptics exhibit the same obstinance and close-mindedness that we accuse the religious right of and it becomes nessecary to take a step back and re-assess your opinion (and your facts!).

    In the final analysis I have to be honest that I was guilty of an initial knee-jerk reaction to the seemingly miraculous breakthrough touted by a very unlikely “inventor” – and while I may have judged Danie (and his claims) prematurely, subsequent discussions with practitioners in the field of Physics and casual reasearch has led me to believe that the scientific premise that underlies his invention is highly improbable.

    If one considers the quantum leap (pardon the pun) that would have had to occur in our understanding of physics in order for this “quantum entanglement” theory to hold up, it becomes less and less likely that it was achieved by an individual with no formal experience or qualifications in the field.

    Finally, I am afraid that we will have to “agree to disagree” about the available proof that his machine works – I have read every single published report where he “found” poeple with the device and I am afraid that the evidence comes up short! Every single case could easily be explained by far more conventional means and good old detective work. That’s not even to mention those cases where he failed to find the bodies at all – we should be careful not to count only the few “hits” while overlooking the “misses”.

  102. […] South African blogger is also less than entirely impressed by Mr Krugel. Here’s her post about Krugel’s performance on a South African show, mentioned in glowing terms on […]

  103. Elizabeth Says:

    Congratulations for holding yuor ground against the people whose understanding of science is so limited theyare easy prey for con-men. It is the responsibility of the ‘inventor’ to provide full, peer-reviewed, scientific prooof of a new invention. Until Danie does that he is simply at best deluded, and unwittingly providing falsehope to distressed people. What he is at worst is something I would prefer not say in this forum.

  104. Hey Moonflake,

    Speaking as a “non-scientist”, would like to thank you for writing all this stuff up. You and others who do this are doing important work. While it may seem (don’t know if it does) that at times you’re preaching to the converted or being baited by morons, I’m sure that there are many, like myself, who appreciate what you’re doing, but don’t enter into the fray.

    Keep up the good work and more power to ya.

    Anyway, going back to something that was on the older post and was commented on here. Your phone number. Any confirmation on how he got it? I mean, if CB gave him your number, that’s mindbogglingly (?) WRONG. Scary, to be honest.

  105. Diarmuid – never got any confirmation at all. But given that the CB producer Susan Puren seems to be Danie’s biggest fan, I wouldn’t be surprised at all.

  106. I find that extremely worrying, more nice ethics from the media ……………………

  107. Psychic Bill Says:

    I predict ….

    #1
    Krugel will be exposed as a fraud but his fans will construct many explanations as to how he was framed by the powers that be in order to supress his invention and use it secretly for their own evil purposes.

    Possible prediction #2.
    Unfortunately my crystal ball is giving problems and can’t be so sure of the next prediction but it is likely(77.34% chance)
    that he will claim not to be using the device at some point in the future due to selling it to undisclosed buyers.

    This will allow him to escape the increasing public attention as more and more people demand a proper test of his claims – which he cannot do.

    prediction #4 (unrelated to Krugel)

    Carte Blanche will produce another award-winning, hard-hitting, serious, in-depth, wonder of investigative journalism exposing the Shaik brothers links to an extraterrestrial crime syndicate.

  108. Could it be that krugel maybe some how could have gotten hold of the baycam video recording that had taken intermitant pictures of the Luz beach all through the day until late at night on that day May 3rd 07?
    The day Maddie Maccann was abducted.

  109. Psychic Bill Says:

    Here is a good article I found.
    The Producer of Carte Blanche appears to have second thoughts about the despicable ‘Fingerprint of Fate’ episode featuring scamster Krugel.

    Seems like it cost a load of money to produce and they had to recover their costs …

    http://blogs.fm.co.za/markets/2007/10/16/4/

  110. I would lock Danie Krugel and FlatWorld in a building and see if they can find each other with magic machines.

  111. very interesting, but I don’t agree with you
    Idetrorce

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  113. Hi Great site with lots of good info. The posts are and comments are very informative indeed Mal

  114. […] journalism. If you don’t want to, then read Moonflake’s eloquently critical summary here (look for the bullet list). A stain on the Carte Blanche reputation, as pointed out here. Also, […]

  115. […] I have been involved a lot recently with Internet discussions about the Matter Orientation System (see previous post). Quite a lot on SADeveloper.NET forum and more passively on the Internet Infidels Discussion Board and MoonFlake’s blog. […]

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